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The Fandom Portals Podcast
From Page to Screen: Breaking Down "House of the Dragon" Season 2, with Frank Lourence from Geek Freaks Podcast
How does House of the Dragon's Daemon Targaryen evolve from a power-hungry prince to a self-aware conqueror? Join us as we uncover this transformation with our special guest, Frank from the Geek Freaks Network, who brings his vast knowledge of George R.R. Martin's world to our discussion. We'll explore the significant differences between Fire and Blood and its TV adaptation, focusing on how the show adds depth to characters such as Daemon and Aemond. You'll gain fascinating insights into the lore surrounding dragon riders and the future of Westeros mythology, making this episode a treasure trove for fans of both the books and the series.
We assess the power dynamics and character arcs that define House of the Dragon. You'll hear about the ambitions and sacrifices of key figures like Kristen Cole and Corlys Velaryon, along with the gender politics that impact Rhaenys and Rhaenyra's paths. Frank sheds light on how the series enriches the narrative beyond the black-and-white depiction found in the book, offering a nuanced view of these compelling stories.
Get ready to celebrate standout moments from Season 2 with our "Season Celebrations" segment. We highlight the most impactful scenes, such as the intense dragon battle at Ravensbrück and Daemon's emotional transformation at Harrenhal. We also touch upon the unique bond between dragons and their riders, and the significance of Targaryen bastards. Don't miss this enriching conversation with Frank, filled with detailed analysis and engaging discussions about the future of Westeros.
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What are some of the major differences from the book and the screen that you can tell us about without giving too much away on what's to come? Hi everybody, it's Aaron Davies here from the Fandom Portals podcast. Now, today's episode is a very special one, ladies and gentlemen, because I am joined by none other than Frank from the Geek Freaks Network. If you haven't heard of Frank already, he produces so many podcasts that you can find available in the show notes below, but most notably, he is the main producer of the Geek Freaks Network, which our podcast is fortunately a part of. So in this episode, we talked to Frank about everything to do with House of the Dragon, which is one of his passion areas. You can hear through the interview that he is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to everything to do with George R R Martin's world of Westeros, and it was a pleasure to actually sit down and pick his brain about a topic that interests him so much. We dove into questions like what really motivated Daemon to have his change of heart. In the House of the Dragon season finale, we talk about how a dragon chooses its rider according to the lore of Westeros. We ask the question what can the viewers expect in the future of the Westeros mythology, and the biggest question that I wanted to ask him, having such a vast knowledge of the source material, was how does what we see on the screen differ to what was actually written in the book? And the answers are extremely surprising and awesomely detailed. When Frank gets going talking about these amazing worlds and all the characters in it in terms of countries, various different noblemen, dragons, names, lineages he is the guy to go to. So sit back while Frank and I take you on a journey through Westeros and we answer these questions just for you, on this episode of the Fandom Portals Podcast.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Fandom Portals Podcast, where curiosity meets community in a celebration of all things geek. We build connections on every episode by delving into your favorite fandom questions in the time it takes you to bake a loaf of bread. I'm your host, aaron Davies, and today we are here to talk about the season two of House of the Dragon. I'm not alone today. I am your host, aaron Davies, and today we are here to talk about the season two of House of the Dragon. I'm not alone today. I am joined by a very good friend of the podcast. It is Frank from the Geek Freaks Network. How are you going today, frank?
Speaker 2:I'm doing very well. Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to talk about House of the Dragon.
Speaker 1:So am I. But before we get into that, Frank, can you tell our amazing listeners of the fandom portals podcast what the geek freak networks is and what you do on that amazing space of yours on the internet?
Speaker 2:uh, so, yeah, we just, we also celebrate fandoms. Uh, we let everybody uh find their niche and enjoy it. Uh, we have the geek freaks podcast, where it's a rotating panel of hosts that talk about different things going on each week, and then a bunch of podcasts behind that too, that each niche down into their own things. There's pretty much something for everybody. And then, yeah, we're just always posting stuff on social media.
Speaker 1:Too often, I'll say Now your social media posts are absolutely slick. So if you guys haven't already, go and check out the Geek Freaks on Instagram especially, but they're pretty much available on all social medias. Is that correct, frank? That's correct, yeah, but I would say our better foot is on Threads and Instagram, for sure. Yeah, yeah, same here. Threads is a great place to connect and I think it's got some really great potential for everybody to connect on there. So definitely go and check them out. On Threads, those will be in the links below, guys, in the show description, but without any further ado, let's kick off our discussion today, because I am a person who I wouldn't actually call myself a Game of Thrones House of the Dragon fan. I wasn't a person who read the books initially and I definitely had my indoctrination into the story mythos from the TV show. How about yourself, frank? How did you get into the land of Westeros?
Speaker 2:So I was looking for something good to read and the first season came out and I hadn't watched it yet but I came across the first book. I was like, oh, you know what I like, because I like to be able to have that comparison with the live action stuff. So then I picked up the first book, got super into it, then watched the first season and then I just read it everything. I read all that there was to read about it and got such so into it and yeah, so I am definitely into it now and I've often on the forums complaining or chatting or comparing, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely an active member of the fandom of the Westeros space. That's really good. So did you read the books prior to the seasons coming out then? Because you obviously picked up the books, that was more written than the seasons had produced then. So then from there you were able to compare as you went.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, the first one came out before I started reading it, but then I hadn't watched it yet, and then everything else I read before even watching it at all, so before it came out and when we're talking about house of the dragon, specifically, what literature are we talking about?
Speaker 1:from george rr martin, because he does have a breadth of stuff to read thick, thick ass books, you might say. You might say, so what ones are we talking about when we're doing House of the Dragon?
Speaker 2:It's a really interesting choice because actually it's a book called Fire and Blood and it's a textbook. It is kind of like how the Cimmerillion is. In a lot of ways it is spanning 300 years of Targaryen history and so House of the Dragon I always say 60, it's probably around 100 pages of house of the dragon in that section in the middle there, um, so yeah, it's, it's reads like a textbook. It goes a lot faster than like the ice and fire, um, and it's. But there are, of course, everything that's there is usually referenced in house or a game of thrones, so you have some of it from that too very cool.
Speaker 1:So when we're talking about like it reads like a textbook, are we talking like um, so it goes through the ages and tells you who the kings were and stuff like that? Does it feature some of the similar characters from the show as well? When we're talking about the novel material, it definitely does.
Speaker 2:So when I say it reads like a textbook, I mean a textbook in those times. So what? It is the maester, which is like a priest at the time. Right, he is writing down the accounts of everything that happened to the targaryens from uh witnesses of the of the time. So, especially at this time, there are two. It's a and um a. Uh, what is that? A jester of the court? His name is mushroom, and so what I like is you have differing opinions on different things, and usually the scandalous things are done by mushroom.
Speaker 2:He's like oh yeah, and then he took raniera down to the you know the house and started kissing her, and then, the maester's like they had a formal meeting, and so, as you're watching the show very unique to any other Normally you're like, oh, the book's better. Well, in this situation the book is being told on second account. So there are things that are spun to make the church look better, maybe, or whatever, or the family better in general, but the show is telling you what actually happened. So, like just a quick example um, raniera and allison's relationship are is still kind of not that bad. Like we see in season two they meet up twice, um, but in the books, of course, those meetings are all in secret, right, we don't see them back. Nobody knows that raniera went over there. So in the books it's just they hate each other right off the bat and you know the victor, a story. So a lot of times one side's painted worse than the other because the victor is the one that tells the story.
Speaker 1:That's cool. It kind of gives the space for that unreliable narrator position.
Speaker 2:That's a big part of it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when you're looking at the books and looking at the actual TV show, there would be a lot of differences because, as we said, that unreliable narrator it's coming from two different sources, two different backgrounds, and I like the way that George would have picked those vastly different backgrounds to get those two different perspectives as well. We're going to get into some page to screen differences a little bit later, but before we do, let's give your overall thoughts on season two of House of the Dragon. What did you think of the season as a whole, frank?
Speaker 2:I think it was a wonderful season, visually stunning. The character growth was so important this season. It was something that we really needed as we transitioned into the rest of the story. I think it's foundational for the Targaryens as a whole, because we have a spinoff coming up, it's going to feature them and, of course, we have Game of Thrones. It was I'm not blind to Boy. It was so disappointing that we didn't get to the battles that they were teasing this whole time. Like we saw this ship being built from episode one and then at the end of the season it's like, yep, ship's ready to go. It's like, no, show us the ship fight. So, yeah, it was good. We needed two more episodes, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually agree with that. I think you know it feels like they wasn't a bad episode of house of the dragon. Was it a finale? Probably not. I I agree with you in terms of I would love to have seen more in terms of uh, just just give us a little bit of bite for all the chewing that we've been doing all season. Not to say that the chewing had been arduous, because, as a person who really loves character drama and seeing the growth of all these different characters, that's like the meat and potatoes for me, but I definitely like it peppered with different scenes of action. Uh, have a chat to me about the visual. Well, that was a weird way to say that the visual uh spectacle that is house of the dragon. You know the, the special effects. Uh, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I, I mean, I'm such a big fan of their set design. Uh, of course, the dragons are always cool. Right, house of the Dragon. A lot of the budget has to go to that, more so than even Game of Thrones. But I think it's important to note that they built a lot of the Red Keep the sewers that we saw. They actually built all those sewers. It's running water going through there. The way the castles look, harrenhal this is the best look at Harrenhal we've ever had. They all have. They do a really good job of it. Just like it, not just looking like a castle, but you know from the walls that that's Harrenhal, that's Dragon's Toad, that's Red Keep. Like you recognize these places. And I think that's just the costumes too, like every little detail of the costumes, the armor. You know where that guy was born, who he fights for, everything like that, based off their armor design, the detail.
Speaker 1:And I think having George RR Martin on the production team helps with that as well. You know getting his vision across. Let's go off book a little bit and talk about some of the locations featured in season two of House of the Dragon, because, as you said, we do have a very good look at Harrenhal. Very weird place, frank, very weird place. What can you tell us about Harrenhal that we may not have gathered from the seasons of House of the Dragon so far? So for people who haven't read the book, what could you tell us about Harrenhal.
Speaker 2:Harrenhal's in the center of Westeros. That and like kind of the twins, that big bridge that we see, those are two choke points and it's a very interesting place because it's like a main setting for the book that nobody has control over. It's very odd in that way. Basically, the idea is Harren the Black, this one dude before the Targaryens really were in charge, thought he was amazing. Aegon the Conqueror comes over and says hey, you gotta bend the knee. Everybody else says I'm now in charge and he has. Now, we learn from this. He has a reason for that.
Speaker 2:Harren's like no, I've got the biggest castle ever to exist, bigger than Vhagar, I want to note that and blows fire down into it and literally melts the castle. That's how much he burns that castle down, so that castle's never been rebuilt since then. When he was building, when Harren was building that castle, he chopped down the weirwood trees, those white trees that you see, that the Starks worship, and we saw a lot in this too, where Daemon was at, and so the bed that's in that little lake next to them is the place where the green men, uh, take care of weirwood trees. So it's like super magical place that is super sacred to a certain people and they just like let's chop everything down and build this castle. That's cursed from day one, so that's why it's. It's a really.
Speaker 1:It's one of the more magical places in westeros that's a really good summary and a lot of things I didn't know before, like the stuff about the dragon coming in obviously like really central part of Westeros and somewhere that everybody wants to control. It was mentioned a few times by lots of different fractions. You mentioned the Weirwood trees. Now, during the season finale of this, Daemon was able to touch one of those trees during one of his visions with the help of Alice Rivers. Is that something that commonly happens to people or was that a daemon specific event, like in terms of the magic and the visions and the space of the Targaryens in the like vision finding? What can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2:So where would? They are connected, right, so it's funny. Is he why he's touching that? I'm surprised I didn't show it, but Bran is seeing him because Bran is very connected to that. So is the three-eyed raven, um, which is sure gonna be another spinoff someday, uh, but yeah, they're all connected, everything's connected, so they see through all the time and space, uh, including into the future.
Speaker 2:Now, damon's magic is different than that magic, but kind of intermittent, like we saw um helena kind of also whispering to him, which is like a different kind of magic really. Uh, but the targaryens, they are like x-men, in fact, that that a lot of them are born with different abilities. Like helena has the ability to see the future to a degree. Uh, daenerys is fireproof, and so there is some untapped stuff there. Like the fact that they control dragons is a magical thing. It's not actually just by luck or by the way they're taught, um, it's a blood magic. So when, when he's doing that, there is probably some untapped targaryen magic, and then, of course, the weird treat itself is magic, and so there he's just kind of seeing what the destiny of it.
Speaker 2:And what I love about that scene it's actually one of my favorite scenes is. It's he. The entire time he thought the series was full of it. Oh, why are you care what the series knew about the song of ice and fire. And then after that, he believes him and then sees that, oh, the series saw that Rhaenyra was the best choice for this mission that we have to do and was then like fully loyal, which is really cool to see Daemon finally get to that point.
Speaker 1:And that's a good segue onto what we're going to move on next, which is the character growth throughout this season. Now, all of our beloved characters started this season in a particular place mentally, physically or whatever and then, at the end of the season, we could say that they are vastly different in terms of the way that they have grown or changed. Now let's start with damon, uh, starting the season. Can you talk about how he grew over the season and what was probably one of the most significant changes for him as a character as the season went on?
Speaker 2:I would say, first off, his story is the one that I get the most complaints from. People are saying, oh, we took too long of him just dreaming I joke around about that, that as well but he has the most growth in my opinion. He started off the season thinking he should have been king. He's with Rhaenyra because, honestly, he thinks it's his best chance at the throne. And he's just. He's just Damon. Then, through the process of sleeping on that weird bed and having those dreams and realizing that the Song of Ice and Fire a real gut check on like you can't be king and also there's more important people in charge and then sees that he, his best thing, is to be a conqueror. There's a saying with the targaryens that when is when a targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin and you're either a great leader or a great conqueror. And I think he sees it okay, I'm a conqueror, not a leader that's a really cool little insight, um, with uh damon's journey as well.
Speaker 1:I remember a a quote from alice rivers, the character uh.
Speaker 1:She said you came to harren hall with a clenched fist.
Speaker 1:Now, to me that was very interesting because obviously that's like a violent sort of action and that was very much significant towards his approach with the rivermen when he'd gone in, because mid mid-season we saw that part where he was on Caraxes, his dragon, and he was literally threatening the Rivermen and for the first time in a long time I think he was very confronted because they turned away and walked away from him on his dragon in his threatening approach.
Speaker 1:And then it's that almost slapstick scene where he's just sort of sitting on the rock and he's got his guys behind him and he's just like I did not expect them to do that. And then I think that's where the wheels start to to turn for damon and um, can you, can you have a little bit of a chat to us about uh, alice rivers and her relationship with damon, because I think she's very significant in his change, even even if it's just as like a voice or or a sounding board? Um, what's the significance between alice rivers and damon, especially like putting in any book lore, if there's any surrounding that.
Speaker 2:Alice Rivers is a fascinating character and if you liked her, she's coming back, guys, so don't worry about that. But she is. She's actually. There's a lot of speculation of how old she is. I think she's about 200 years older now, and that's the point of the show. She's the wet nurse, to like the old man that was there Like she's been the wet nurse the entire time for a long time, and so that's one thing.
Speaker 2:That's kind of toyed with and she's trying to shape the future. She's also, from my understanding, trying to have a Targaryen baby, so there's a little bit of that going on too. So if it's not David, it'll be somebody else. But yeah, there's I think she's just big themes for all of House of the Dragon is the fact that the wealthy are fighting and the people below them are dying, and the fact that he comes to Harrenhal and is like, oh, I'm going to do this. It's like, yeah, but the river lords are going to fight and die because of whatever you just say next, and you have to see that it's so much bigger than you, there's a bigger purpose, and so I think she's as connected to the weird tree as he was towards the end and probably saw the destiny that's coming ahead Rivers so she was born in that area. There is definitely a connection to the green men there. You know the children of the forest.
Speaker 1:Very cool. So, yeah, just for our audience as well, we are doing, obviously, spoilers of season two. We are going to spoil some book stuff, but we're not going to go ahead and spoil things from beyond what the show has talked about. So we will give insights and things like that. Frank has a good knowledge of the book, but we're not going to spoil that for you guys, of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's move on to the antithesis, or the opposing character of Damon, you might say, on the other side, on the green side, we're talking, of course, of Amon Targaryen, very interesting character. We see him at the start of the season. Obviously we see him at the start of the season. Obviously he reminds me of what Damon was like in the first season, where he is very much vying for what his brother has and then he shows moments of vulnerability throughout the show where we see him obviously cradling up to I've forgotten the character's name, but she's essentially one of the women of the night, right, yeah, and then he's obviously humiliated by his brother and then he goes through a transition as well no-transcript that enabled him to be the sort of tyrannical figure that he is throughout season two.
Speaker 2:Aemon is one of those guys you just love to hate, isn't he? Yeah, so Aemon is very much a mirror to Daemon and we see in season one when he gets his eyes sliced, he's being bullied by the other kids and stuff like that. He's just that kind of guy. He got tortured as a kid and as Daemon is becoming more and more accepting of the Targaryen life and his role and his part in the world, aemon is going the opposite direction.
Speaker 2:He started off as very loyalist to Team Green I'm part of the family, I am the sword to my brother and very strong within his family and then, as the season goes on and he starts to take power for his self, seeing that his brother is bullying him just like anybody else, that even Team Green is not strong and that he needs to be by himself, he starts to alienate himself. And he even alienates helena, somebody who he was he had a bit of a crush on when he's a kid. And, um, his mom, he's got so many mommy issues, um, and he's starting to alienate her too, or he fully alienates her. So now by the end he's like by himself. He's on the biggest dragon, who even the dragon doesn't quite listen to 100%, which that's because Vhagar is just tired.
Speaker 2:Let's be honest so, yeah, so we're seeing it by the end of the season. He is, by himself, a terrible king again, a conqueror, not a leader.
Speaker 1:While Daemon has gone closer to team black and less isolated, aemon has gone the opposite direction, is more isolated and furthering himself away from his own family he's definitely one of the linchpins in the the greens faction in terms of their strength and their ability to manipulate the battlefield, obviously, vhagar being this omnipresent aspect. One of the best things that I thought of season two was every and I don't know if you felt the same way, but every single time that Vhga sort of made an appearance on the screen. It reminded me of those old sort of movies where, uh, like the big monster was approaching and you, you heard it before you saw it, and it was slowly revealed through, and there was always that bassy kind of music um, uh, the battle reminiscent of when, um, the dragons fought and when vega was was there as well and fighting melees. Uh, that that one, specifically because you actually see vega sort of bobbing under the tree line like a massive shark and it was just.
Speaker 1:It was really cool and every time that hulking dragon takes off it almost fills me with like fear. I'm just like holy crap, like this thing is huge, so definitely a really big part of the um. Like the greens army and faction we're going to get a little bit into like dragon seeding and dragon claiming a little bit later. But uh, does the book reveal anything about the relationship between vega and amand in terms of why that partnership sort of happens? Uh, vega to me seems like a very old sort of soul and obviously a very wise dragon, and amand seems very reactionary and uh driven by his feelings. So it seems like an unlikely pairing to me. Did you want to comment to that?
Speaker 2:So Vhagar's previous, just before this one was Laena, and that was Daemon's first wife, right? So she's a very kind soul, very nice person. But Vhagar's original writer was Visenya, which is we're going to see. There's a spinoff coming up about Aegon the Conqueror and his two sister wives, and one of them was Visenya, and she was a warrior, One of the best warriors in history. She's oftentimes referenced back and her mount was Vhagar. So we're going to see Vhagar, a much more spry and fast dragon, in Aspen.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's, scary.
Speaker 2:Still super large, but faster right. And every time Vhagar moves, I love that, like all the other dragons, you see them like fluid and moving real quick. For her, for some reason, it feels like you can see every part of her body move independently, as it's kind of like gets its lumbering self in the air. So we're gonna see rider, and I think there was something there where she's mourning the death of her last master with lana. She, she had to, she was the one that killed her, but lana asked for that.
Speaker 2:Um, and then so when she sees amon come up, this like tortured little kid but with a fire in him that reminds her of isenia, uh she's like, yeah, this is what I need, I need to like cleanse my palate with some you know good stuff, and uh, sees it and knows that she could go back to war with him. Uh, I think that's one of the things is, he doesn't listen to her when amen doesn't or, I'm sorry, vagard doesn't listen to amen because she's kind of doing what vicinia would have done where she's just like go burn down dragon stone, get rid of all those dragons, you could do it, and so that's. That's.
Speaker 1:What I love is she's still acting like her oldest master it kind of reminds me of uh and a very like immature sort of reference, but Ash and Charizard when they have that sort of relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great reference.
Speaker 1:And Charizard is just like I'm going to do what I want to do. But yeah, I love seeing Vega's attitude and you can tell sometimes when you're watching the show where she's just this old pissed off lady that just wants to just do her thing, you know, and that's great. I love seeing that too. But I definitely think we have more to see in terms of Amon and Vhagar, especially given the fact that that is the chip on the chessboard that the blacks need to move off in order to secure their position. And as the season went on, the greens position and Vhagar's importance just increased and increased, and we'll get into that a little bit later.
Speaker 1:In terms of in terms of power, when we're talking about some of the characters, there were characters that started with power and ended without any. So, in particular, let's have a look at Alicent. When she sort of started the season, she was on the small council for the king. She had a very high and prestigious position amongst the council. As the season went on, that change Can you talk about the change that Alicent went through through the season, specifically Frank?
Speaker 2:Alicent's a fun character because she starts this whole process off thinking first off. She's fully right that the series wanted Aegon to be the leader and seeing herself as like I'm taught by Otto Hightower one of the smarter strategic players on the field. And as the days go on, like everything she thought was going to be a given is exactly what she's fighting against, like she thinks that she's going to be able to hold on to power. It's like we're fighting against a woman who's in power. We're not going to have you be in power. That doesn't look good for us. And so when there's an opening because of Aegon's injury, she council's like no, we can't have you there, because then it gives legitimacy to raniera and we can't do that.
Speaker 2:So it's like she set herself up to never have a chance at actually winning this because she's she's, she is reina, but just on the different side of the chessboard. So it's, it's a shame for her and she loses power. And there is a thing where, like she's friends and like her nephews are dying in this war, you know, so it's not only just her kids, but but also family that she grew up with, with her friend's kid, and so I think there's a lot of complex motions there. I really liked the fact that they brought these two characters together a couple of times to share that, and I'm glad that we're going to get out of Hightower back in the third season because I think he's a really big part of empowering her again.
Speaker 1:I agree. I think that Otto Hightower's presence definitely emboldens the Hightower name. He did just sort of ghost at the end of the season. We might get into a little bit about that in a moment. But in terms of her sort of downward spiral, you might say, on the power hierarchy, during that moment where Eamon was named, she was also kind of denounced by or not denounced fully, but publicly at least by Christian Cole. He is obviously a character that is emboldened by her, but he's also a character that is pretty disliked through the fandom, as I've seen. Can you comment on why that might be and also comment on some of the things in the book that Kristen Cole does that might be different or the same to how he's portrayed in the in the season?
Speaker 2:one thing about kristen cole is in the history of house of the dragon, like the history of the dance of the dragons, which this is called, uh, uh, he's to blame. So they actually like write it to where kristen cole's the one that did everything wrong, because you know you don't want to say it's a targaryen, they're still in charge. So you say like kristen cole talked this guy into it. No, whatever, um, he's, he's the reason that rook's rest went so bad. Uh, but it's really just he's a pawn and everything else. Um, the reason I think he's so hated is because, like, as bad as amon is he.
Speaker 2:Amon has like a right to the throne or he has a right to be in this fight. Kristen cole's just in there as an opportunist in the show, not so much of the books, he's Dorne, he works with the Baratheons. Then he gives his way over to like he's just trying to climb that political ladder so hard that it's like, dude, get out of here, you don't belong here. And in comparison, laris Clubfoot, who I think is kind of doing the same thing, same thing, like a Littlefinger type character, right Doing the same thing but adds value to that, like they're the Lords of Whispers and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:When Kristen Cole's like you're making all the wrong moves, you're just lucky and you're just sleeping with the right people, he's like the worst guy you can work with. You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, he's doing his way to claw his way to the top and I like that. Whenever he's in a situation where people are talking about him, there is always a character that references his heritage like his Dornish heritage in sort of a bad way. Can you explain to people why that might be something that someone's not proud of being from Dorne?
Speaker 2:Oh, the Dornish people are so freaking cool and Game of Thrones did them so dirty this series. The Dornish people are the Martells, or the leading family. They're all the way to the south. They look different than the rest of Westeros. They're a little bit darker or skin. The way it's described in the books is kind of a mix of like spain and egypt. It's kind of a mix of those two. There's a lot of like oasis based things. Um, they are incredible family. A lot of sand snakes, stuff, like a lot of really cool stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So, um, when agon conquered all of westeros, he didn't conquer all of westeros. He couldn't conquer um, the martels and they actually took out one of his sisters and so then he took two years to burn every city he can find in dorne. So there's like this big revenge against the targaryens and and the martels. There's a rebellion that happened right before this and, um, he's kind of a traitor to his people kristen cole because he left that. So they're just the other people. And then there's some you know classic racist racism. Of course there's always got to be some of that in every story and you know it's a shame, but this is based off a real history here, and so he is a darker skin character than everybody around him. Generally the show doesn't show so much, but if he's from dorne then yeah, he has kind of that brown if you think of, like egyptian and and and spanish skin, you know yeah, very Now talking about Dornish people from the sand, let's move all the way over to the people of Salt and Sea.
Speaker 1:We're talking, of course, of Corliss and his seafaring people. Now can you talk about Corliss in terms of his growth through the season and what may have been one of the triggering events to his largest change?
Speaker 2:Oh God, I love him so much.
Speaker 1:He's the best.
Speaker 2:He's so cool he's the best and and guys, he's just a straight-up pirate, like the reason I just a real fast little quick history on him his house wasn't rich in forming. Yeah, they're, they're valyrian blood, but like not a rich family. He builds this ship to sea snake, he goes across on I think it's called seven, the seven voyages and he like goes to un like untouched lands, like people from westros, never goes Asai or whatever, and he does all his trading and bartering and comes back with a ship full of gold and just made his family one of the richest families in Westeros. He makes his fortune and that's why he thinks the way he does going forward. It's like he's like my family's number one and I make my family number one.
Speaker 2:So in the super attached to the Targaryens, because the Targaryens didn't make their, especially at this level of Targaryens, didn't make their fortune and really it was one person with a dream that got them to where they're at anyways. So he's not super attached to them, doesn't have super loyalty to them, but he obviously loves Rhaenys more than anything in the world. The growth I was a little disappointed with his growth because his, his two bastard sons, adam and Alan, his, his two bastard sons, adam and alan, are very cool characters to explore uh in their own rights and the fact that he just doesn't completely accept them although rainies is like telling him to is a shame because I think that they are they're they're important for his house going forward and it would have been really nice for him to try to like, try to teach them or something like that.
Speaker 1:You know, I don't know, yeah yeah, it was like a sort of squire or mentorship. I actually really liked that scene in the end, where he does talk to Alan on the dockside and he basically says to him you know, now I'm added to you because all of your heirs sort of have gone, and he has the same sort of emboldening steadfastness as I feel like his father has, because he's standing in his position saying you know, I know my worth, I will build my own, I don't need anything from you, which I think is good. And then Adam as a character as well, very quick to bend the knee to Rhaenyra's as he becomes a dragon rider. He claims a dragon later on and, yeah, I think that that family has a whole lot of power. And in terms of Corlys, he was a very to me and obviously, as you've said as well, he's a very ambitious character. And after the death of Rhaenys he's just. He even names his ship after her. I think.
Speaker 1:What was it called? The Queen that Never Was? That's right, the Queen that Never Was, yeah, so yeah. What was it called? The Queen that Never Was? That's right, the Queen that Never Was, yeah, so yeah, he's even sort of dedicated the rest of his mission, life and his ambitiousness, he sort of funneled it toward that thing. He realizes that he's lost in terms of his love. What a sacrifice to you know. Let's talk about Rainy. She deserves her day in the sun. So yeah, mid-season episode, probably one of the better episodes in the season, I would say in terms of action. Yep, can you talk about the moving parts that sort of led to that scene and the gravity of Rhaenys' sacrifice in that scene?
Speaker 2:Rhaenys is a wonderful character. She really is the queen that never was. And the whole thing with her in the series who would be the next leader, the fact that she wasn't chosen because she's not. She has the better right to the throne in the first place. She wasn't chosen because she's a woman.
Speaker 2:So then to see her backing over nira and it's like, yes, this is her second chance to just showing that that has value, you know, and, um, she throws all her muscle behind it and even, you know, losing, they believe losing her, their son and their, their daughter, to the cause, like they're just trying everything.
Speaker 2:And she's, she is a loyal targaryen. She knows jaheras, she knows the kings of old and stuff like that. So she's very much targaryen and I think her relationship with her dragon is the best example of what that that relationship's like. Because like, even uh, just to kind of throw some book stuff here, um, before the actual war kicks off and there's just some tension between the two families that are still living in Red Keep together, their dragons would snap at each other. It's because the dragons are emotionally connected to their riders and so when we see like she's like all right, old girl, let's go out again or whatever, and then when they kind of look at each other like knowing that they're probably not going to survive this fight, but they turn back to continue the attack, that bond, I think, is important to see, because oftentimes we see the Vhagar thing that comes up a lot, the fact that Vhagar's not listening to Aemon, and it shows how out of character that is, because that's not normal.
Speaker 2:Normally the dragon is bonded to you and you know, like Vhagar burning, lena showed this bond like I need to go out, showed like this bond like I need to go out, I need to go out like a targaryen and vegar mournfully doing that. And then we see that here with with rainy, she's the most pure targaryen we've seen on the series, in my opinion and I loved her.
Speaker 1:The first time I remember looking at her and thinking that is a badass character was obviously in the first season when she broke through uh and flew off with maylise to join uh reneara during the middle part of that season. Just a really sort of strong female character that people can get behind and you know, her sacrifice throughout this season really was impactful to obviously Corlys and spurred his transition, but to the whole sort of black faction as well. Talking about Rhaenyra, she obviously goes through her struggles through this season as well in terms of the fact that she is a woman. You know she's surrounded by all of these advisors who are all men and they're all talking about how she should best claim the throne that belongs to her. Uh, can you have a little chat about uh Rhaenyra and the the sort of prophecy that leads her to be one of the greatest rulers in Westeros, but also her struggles with basically being listened to by the council that she's surrounded by?
Speaker 2:One of the themes of all of Game of Thrones universe is the gender politics and the fact that women are overlooked. A lot of Game of Thrones specifically our ice and fire, is pulled from the War of the Roses, from English history and a lot of times like, if you guys, fire is pulled from the War of the Roses from English history, and a lot of times, if you guys just listen to the queens, it would be fine. And so Rhaenyra, being the one that's correct in the room, is important, because not only are the men almost talking about her while she's standing next to them, they all just want to go to war. You're using my dragons, and the allies that are actually important aren't even at the table. That's the Ares, the people who have the veil, and the Starks up in the north. They're not even at the table. Those are the only two that actually matter, and so to sit there and try to talk over her is just foolish.
Speaker 2:And yeah, she's the war at all costs. It's her decisions and, to a point, jace. Actually, jace helps a lot too to bring in bastards and to embrace the idea that there are bastards out there. That gives her any leverage in this fight. And then when she listens to a woman who says you need to feed the people of King's Landing to show them you're good, is again the only thing that gives her advantage to the jerks around the table that are just like, oh, we should go to war. That's not what's going to win you this fight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wave the sword never works. You mentioned Jace and the bastards in this. I think a very massive theme of Game of Thrones and even House of the Dragon is the importance and the value of those that seem to have no value. So, especially in this season, the bastards, the cripples and the small folk really get their day in the sun. Let's talk about Laris Clubfoot first. You said he's positioning himself in a very advantageous spot in terms of his friendship I'll say in quotes with Aegon. Can you talk a little bit about his motivations, his house and some of the theories surrounding him? It may be outlined in the book, but I think he has a hand in what's happened to sort of otto hightower, so can you explain that a little bit as well?
Speaker 2:do you want a real fun theory? There are theories that he's actually a skin changer so he could actually. He's like actually the cats in the in the castle, so that's a fun theories and stuff like that. That's how he gets his whispers is that he actually walks around as a cat and listens to people or the rats and stuff that is a cool theory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, but yeah, he's like Tyrion Lannister. If he's evil, right, Because Tyrion also was born different than everybody else, then was put down by everybody else, but Tyrion still was able to hold some dignity in that. Well, Larys doesn't. He makes sure to kill his own family to make sure that he's in a good spot. He doesn't care about Harrenhal. He owns Harrenhal but he doesn't care about it. And he's using Aegon. The Aegon situation is complicated because I do think there is a level of seeing another broken man and wanting to help out.
Speaker 2:But also Aegon is so malleable you could use him in any way you wanted. So it's also a way for him to secure his own safety and they escape at the end of the night. But Laris can't leave King's Landing for too long, guys. He's going to be back for sure, but just because that's where he's strongest he doesn't do good in some random other place. He's good there where all the politics are at. So he's going to try his best to get back to it. And a lot like we saw with Game of Thrones, this will come down to a fight between Whispers Not come down to it, but the White Worm versus Laris Clubfoot, like these two Masters of Whispers in this like spy craft. It's another layer to the entire Game of Thrones universe. That's one of my favorites, and so he's going to do everything he can to make sure that he's safe and successful at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:And I liked what he said in the last episode about how he thinks that the best course of action and he urged Aegon to do this was to let your enemies fight it out and then come back and deal with the scraps after that. You know, when they've all tied themselves out after battling this way and that and they've defeated all the dragons that are coming this way and that way and all together come back in a stronger position and then take what you want after that.
Speaker 2:A key touch to that he makes sure to kind of mention. Like you'll come back in and king's landing, we'll see who's the hero, because we saw it in this season, we'll see it in future seasons that while the targaryens are fighting, there's people that are dying in the streets, and so if you come back and try to be a savior, like we saw with renear trying to do with those boats, uh, you're gonna get the people on your side and they are also a very important to build his own faction. Amongst game of thrones well, flea bottom and stuff that's a common theme like people will forget about the actual people and they will sway the war if you're not paying attention to them.
Speaker 1:No, very cool, yeah, um, moving toward the the bastards sort of angle now, obviously we had john snow in game of thrones. In this one we have Jace, who is a very strong bastard, but then also a lot of the small folk throughout this season are then corralled by Rhaenyra in this strategy to find more dragon riders. It's been widely mentioned that a lot of various different Targaryen kings obviously took other lovers during the time, so the bloodline exists in other places. I'm interested to know how the book, especially from the perspective of the maesters, handled this sort of situation in terms of, because I would imagine that acknowledging a bastard in this sort of regard, especially to the extent of giving them one of the noblest of birthrights for the Targaryen, would sit with the common people. So can you comment a little bit about that and how bastards are represented through the book, and especially from the perspective of the maester?
Speaker 2:One of the most important characters of all this is Jaehaerys the Wise, which we saw in the very first episode. He's the old man who made Viserys King, so his wife. Before then, if you were a Targaryen bastard you had the white hair and stuff like that you were treated as like a specialty person and they would oftentimes give you an important role, like even if you were just like in charge of the bank of this certain town or whatever. Like you were elevated immediately because you had Targaryen blood. You were seen as part magical.
Speaker 2:But that created a lot of problems where men would want to cheat to get a white kid, a white haired kid, and so Jaehaerys' wife said we're going to get away with that system and so after that the bastards were kind of not recognized, just so they wouldn't make it even more, wanting to cheat on your wife and stuff and making the normal quote unquote wives. Okay. But during Jaehaerys' reign he had a ton of kids and they had a ton of kids. So there's like a lot of Targaryens legitimately born and then of course they have a lot of kids that are not legitimately born when you have that many running around, uh, king's Landing. So particularly at this time. There are a lot of bastards of Targaryen kids, cause there was like a long reign of peace. It was long reign of peace. Everybody's just getting around with each other.
Speaker 1:Everybody's in love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and that is a big theme. There's actually I'm sure it's going to be a spinoff soon called the Blackfire Rebellion, which is about one king that just really liked his bastard, so he legitimized it all before he died. And then he died and it's like wait, you just legitimized like 12 kids or whatever it was. It's really impactful for Game of Thrones. The mercenaries you see in Game of Thrones some of them are Blackfyre survivors and stuff. So it is a theme that you'll see a lot in the future of the story.
Speaker 1:All right, I think this is a good transition to move into the art of dragon seeding and dragon claiming. So I'm interested to know what the lore says about those able to claim a dragon, because we see some very different claimings in this season which I want to go through as well yeah, the idea is that okay.
Speaker 2:So first off, when they're born, they usually put a dragon egg inside their crib and then that'll be their dragon. It'll hatch, it'll be easy. So, uh, reina, who her dragon? Never hatched. Uh, she doesn't have a dragon. That's why, damon, everybody kind of treats her as like, oh, you'll just go and watch the kids, she's not. That's why she's so desperate to find sheep stealer, uh, and then possibly either die by it or tame it.
Speaker 2:Um, there are other ways to claim a dragon. You can claim somebody else's dragon after their rider has passed. So that leaves the question like, oh wait, so sea smoke was able to be claimed by um adam. Does that mean that lanor died off screen? We didn't see him. In the book it said that he's just dead. It doesn't say that there's this like whole thing where he got away in the night, um, so it's believed that he's already dead and uh, yeah, and they're.
Speaker 2:The original way that they were able to tame dragons is that there was this blood magic thing in High Valyria where they were able to kind of like manipulate things. A lot of people believe they actually kind of created dragons out of these worms that were in the area. So they are magical in a very real sense. Even the flames of a dragon are magic, like that's how they make Valyrian steel is with the flame of a dragon, which is that can kill the night king and stuff. So, uh, the bonding with them is is not so much just like you found a new puppy, uh it's, it's that you have a blood bond with that, with that creature yeah, it seems like a really sort of special um process in terms of who a dragon, and it does seem like who the dragon chooses when they're going through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, obviously the red sewing. In episode seven of this season, you see 40 or so Targaryen bastards in the Red Keep and three dragons, or two dragons willing to be claimed, one of them obviously being the bronze Vermithor. Vermithor.
Speaker 2:Vermithor the bronze fury Yep.
Speaker 1:Yep, a very fearsome dragon, and silver wing, as well as the second one that was there. Three very different characters got dragons this season in terms of the small folk. Let's have a look first at Hugh, which I believe is called Hugh the Hammer. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Hugh Hammer yeah, and then it's Hugh the Hammer.
Speaker 1:Is that correct, hugh?
Speaker 2:Hammer yeah. And then it's Ulf the White yeah, he's a great character. The fact that he, when he's not poor, he feels like he would be a Targaryen the other day of the week. He's very strong, very broad. He feels like he's from the Maegor, the Aegon line, the stronger versions of the Targaryens, and the fact that he was poor was the only reason he wasn't like in that line. The show states that he is from that. He's that he's from a daughter of there's so many names a daughter of Jaehaerys, and so we would be similar to the brothers or like the nephews or whatever, of Daemon and Viserys.
Speaker 2:So he's like really close to that line, more close, I think, than the other bastards are.
Speaker 1:Yep. And that is completely juxtaposed with Ulf, who starts as almost like a tavern hero, a drunkard, almost claiming and boasting throughout the different places of his heritage, only to have it legitimized by the fact that Silverwing does in fact choose him. What would compel a dragon to pair or bond with someone like Ulf in terms of and I feel like his story is yet to be told, but initially, from what I'm seeing, he was a drunken idiot. The dragon paired with him and then from there he changed immediately into this I'll say, asshole, like he was basically like, yeah, telling everybody about his new position of power, not being humble about it at all. So I feel like that pairing between ulf and um hugh is really good, but what would lead a dragon to pair with someone like old frank?
Speaker 2:well, it's all about your previous owners, right? So vagar or vagar, um, vermithor's previous owner was jaharis the wise, like the old man, and so he had a master for a very long time and was mostly used to intimidate people. That's the most like. He wasn't much of a fighter, he was mostly there to just intimidate people. And from day one Vermithor there is, he's called the Bronze Fury is. He was kind of a jerk. Only I should be around that dragon. You know, there's like there's a famous thing with horses Some horses are just jerk horses, so only one rider really rides them.
Speaker 2:The other side of that is Jahares' wife. I keep saying just Jahares' wife because I think her name was like Alice or Alicent, it's not something like that, I can't remember. But she was kind-hearted, wonderful woman. Her and Jahares would have fights, sometimes madly in love, and so silverwing is kind of also impersonating her in a way where, um, she was compassionate, she did. She famously won this big tour where she just wanted to listen to the women of, of westeros and stuff like that. So silverwing I think has always been kind of like love first and kind of a beautifully so the way it reacts to old or uh, yeah, all the white is kind of like a puppy. I love that. I love that like the little shaking of the body. As for allf, I think that was just a kind of unfortunate characterization that he was such so jovial in the taverns.
Speaker 2:It's more important to look at it as he was trying to get free drinks by telling tall tales and that was his goal not so much that he was just like, also just everybody's friend, but he's also the swindler that was getting everybody to buy his drinks because he was like a, a bastard. Uh, going forward. That's the way you need to look at him, that when he's like, being super arrogant, at the end it's a guy who's swindled all day long, every day, and now he has all the gold, so now he's just going to act like his swindling worked. So he's not a good guy. But he's not necessarily a bad guy, they're all. No, targaryen is a good guy, if we're being honest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like um silverwing in this moment sort of looked at him and went I can change him, yeah. And then when he's sitting at the table with his feet up and he sees Jace for the first time and he goes you and I are cut from the same cloth I thought that was a really powerful scene because, you know, that was Jace's fear the whole time. He's just like, you know I'm. The only thing that legitimizes me is the fact that you know, I have a dragon, and now all these bastards have dragons too. And then somebody actually says it to his face and it was like it had to be Ulf that did it too.
Speaker 2:And you know, him at that dinner scene is just complete A person who has definitely embraced his new position in a very jovial way, you might say so yeah, and compared to the Q, who recognizes the strength and power that comes with that dragon and sees it like you just got elevated, not just because you're now with a full belly and gold in your pocket, but also now you're a higher status. So you need to start acting like it and remember when he was talking to his wife. He's like you'll become a lady. It's because he knows that everything about him is about to be dragged up to the top, if he can. So you is smarter about that situation. Like no, act like a King.
Speaker 1:You need to be acting like. I like that. This season allowed us to see a few more characters and I feel like they were built really, really well With Adam as well. His claiming of Seasmoke obviously you said before indicates that the previous owner of Seasmoke had died. Off screen. He's very loyal, very sort of ambitious in terms of not raising his status but doing his part, being worthy. It says, you know, at the start, if he had the chance that Alan had, he would jump at it, and I think that was a pairing that made sense to me because I saw, you know, that valuable trait in Adam. So it was interesting to me to see a dragon pair with Ulf, because throughout the whole season I was like what is going on with this guy? Why are we seeing this? This because I didn't know he was going to be a dragon rider and some other people wouldn't either. So he's a very interesting, compelling character I can't wait to see more of. Yeah, very cool adam.
Speaker 2:Adam is is going to be everybody's favorite character. I I just love adam so much. I'm such a big adams fan and, uh, the fact that he is so loyal and it's like it's like him and Alan are both ambitious, but like Alan's, like I will make my own way up, and then Adam's, like I will push, I will make, I will push a cause up. So it's like they both have two different ways of like being very, um, important to the, to the story or the history around them, but they go different ways about it. And just man, I am a big fan of Adam and Sea Smoke, so it it's just cool to see that like all right finally.
Speaker 1:I think, in my opinion, corliss has the best family, like his characters and the characters that surround him. That house is probably my favorite in terms of this season of House of the Dragon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you really got to read the kind of the prequel that I wish they would actually just make it a prequel. Like him on the ship, like dealing with pirates and you know, forging new trade routes and stuff like that. Like he's straight up like this explorer that made himself one of the richest guys in the world, instead of just being inherited, like Philanthropist did.
Speaker 1:Westeros' first self-made man. Yeah, yeah, no, that's really cool. All right, we've talked about differences between the book and the screen quite a little bit throughout, but I will ask you, frank, what are some of the major differences, besides the relationship, obviously, between Alicent and Rhaenyra's, because we've gone through that one, but what?
Speaker 2:are some of the major differences from the book and the screen that you can tell us about without giving too much away on what's to come, the most important thing. So in the book especially, they go pretty quick with this. Again, it's like a history book. So when you're learning about the history I was about to use a United States history, but that might not work in this situation when you're learning about World War II, you know about the facts of World War II, but then if you were to actually talk about like, oh you know this general, you know he's missing his kid at home, stuff like that, it makes the rest of everything factual, like this is what we know, stuff like that.
Speaker 2:There's some a little bit of added stuff here In the show. We're giving context for everything. So the fact that Damon becomes loyal and they end up doing this soon big move that's going to be coming in season three. We know now that it's not because Damon. We know why Damon made that move. Damon is now fully on board with Rhaenyra, which we learned through the show.
Speaker 2:The fact that amon is such a bastard is and I don't mean that in game of thrones terms, I mean he's just a jerk um is because he was picked on and he was kind of forced to be in that situation. Like it just gives so much context, uh, the going back to that allison and renear relationship, like that whole thing is just so black and white in the book and here, it's true, it's so much more tragic because they are friends and they are trying to save everybody and that's what makes this series and I think a lot of other shows can take their movies or whatever that's based off of books can use. This is not just like being compared to the book, but also enhancing your source material with additional information, which I think makes this a very unique and special.
Speaker 1:I think that was the word I was going to go with.
Speaker 1:It enhances the drama and the dots on the page that george rr martin put down there.
Speaker 1:So just fleshing out the, the various different people that you're reading about through the historical annals, and I feel like this show does it really really well because even though some characters are really good or some characters are really deceitful or some characters are less than admirable, I like them all and I want to see what happens to them all.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think that is really artfully done by the shows filling in those gaps and, you know, in some cases, sometimes that's good, you know, just getting the outline of the story and letting the show creators do what they do, you know, create the characters, create the emotional investment, whereas in a book like Game of Thrones, I feel like everybody sort of had some preconceived idea of what had to happen and how people had to be, and then we've spoken about it before frank about how expectation doesn't meet reality and that's where fans and fandoms have the most sort of contention I've found. So the fact that this is just like a history book and facts on the page and the house of the dragon show enhances uh, what is there already? I think that's the best thing that could have happened with uh, with this series. Was there any more sort of book to text connection, a book to screen text connections that you wanted to talk about specifically?
Speaker 2:sure, but to touch on what you said, which is such a great point, like so, the first uh ice and fire book came out in 96. That's actual game of thrones, and george rr martin will put so much. He'll spend half a page explaining the wine that Tyrion's drinking, and it helps because now you know about the wine. You're like oh okay, it's from Dorne, you got to whatever. But he wrote, with a co-writer, fire and Blood after the show's already started coming out. So, like, that book is clearly written knowing that we're going to need some spinoffs.
Speaker 2:So that, I think, is why, like now, you guys can't get too mad, because I I didn't give a lot of detail on what happened in that. That's up for whoever the show writer is. So it was like he kind of knew. Remember that George RR Martin was a screenwriter before he was a novelist. He worked on an old Beauty and the Beast series and, I think, twilight Zone. He worked on Twilight Zone, so that's actually his background. But yeah, going on to some of the differences that we see from the show and the books, I think one of the biggest things is Helena. Her visions are given a lot more credence in the show, which I think is good, because she is very special, one of the Targaryen dreamers. That's amazing and the dreaming thing as a whole.
Speaker 2:It's never explained that Aegon has dreams of the past. The Ice and Fire story, the Cat's Paw Dagger, all of that is kind of just really short explained and we're not. We don't know that the Targaryens are handing that down. Why would we? The story is being told by maesters, not by Targaryen Kings. When it's something that's only being told from King to King, that's why only they know about it. And that dagger is in Game of Thrones it's the one that's used to attempt to kill Bran and we know that if you burn the dagger, and we know that if you burn the dagger it actually reveals the Ice and Fire poem, and I like that. They're giving so much more context to a dagger that has been a real mystery in Boxing Game of Thrones, but kind of a light one. It's something that we would discuss a lot on the forums back in the day. But now it's actually like holy cow. When Aemon walks up to his brother burnt on the ground and we see him pick up that dagger, we're like good, okay, the dagger's with him.
Speaker 2:Now, like people are tracking that dagger, because we know at some point it's going to be given from Littlefinger to Joffrey, to the cat's paw to try to stab Bran, and then that will start that in too. So it's just so funny.
Speaker 1:It's a really good through line too, because obviously, this being a very sort of prescribed text reading um, I've read in places that this has probably got four seasons worth of material. Um, what? What are your comments towards that? You know, how much sort of can we look forward to in terms of what's to come, without revealing too much, obviously?
Speaker 2:I thought we were going to go three seasons. When they were first airing it or first planning it, it was going to be three seasons. I thought we were still sticking with that and I was like, okay, well, that last season is going to be it'll definitely be faster than the first season. It'll be faster than the second season too, like you'll get more battles in it. Um, and yeah, because we have some really pivotal twists and turns coming up. There's one moment and I was telling there's one moment that's going to be like the defining moment of the dance of the dragons. It's what's referenced in all the other books. Um, that's going to happen. I hope they save it for one of the final episodes, because they really need to but, it'll be pretty quick.
Speaker 2:And then I want you guys to remember when you're looking forward to this too. George rr martin has a really big tendency of taking characters like jamie lannister, that you hate, and making somebody you love and somebody you love and see, like daenerys, and seeing them in a different light. So kind of remember that characters are going to shift over the entire thing. So maybe kristen cole's a good example, because guess what, he's not going to change. But Kristen Cole, imagine if Kristen Cole now sees the light, sees the damage is done and now is like trying to stop the dragons from killing people. That's the kind of thing that you can expect from House of the Dragons as well. So every one of these characters is still on the board for you to love or hate them.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic because, as you know, I'm a really big con story and sometimes you can watch a character drama without there being much plot. But luckily, House of the Dragon has both. So we're in that kettle of fish here. But we digress. We've talked so much about this, Frank. We're going to move into our segment, which I like to call Season Celebrations, and with Season Celebrations, this is where my guests and I talk about the things that were great during the season and we give awards to some of our favorite parts, given some specific categories. So the first category for this award, Frank, is going to go to an award I like to call Scene of the Season. Now, this award goes to a particular scene that really stood out to you or was game-changing or made you react the most. So what is your Scene of the Season for Season 2, House of the Dragon, Frank?
Speaker 2:I feel like so basic for picking this but it has to be picked is the big battle at Ravensbrück. I think that was a promise that was made from the very start, that you're going to see Targaryens fighting each other. It's like, okay, dragon fight. So we actually saw it on screen, not just like, oh, they're on a dragon, they win. No, there is actual consequences. I think this was finally answering that desire the fans have had for so long.
Speaker 1:I think it also legitimizes the fact that, you know, having a dragon is a really powerful thing because you can have the biggest army in the world, which you saw at Rook's Rest, but as soon as the dragons came in, it was like out, you can have the biggest land army, it does not matter, so dragons matter, which really uh, emboldens the fact that reneers actually went and made this drastic move to. You know, let bastards be dragon sires, basically, uh. So, yeah, I really like that battle too. Really big spectacle, and it was a good fight too. I will give it that. Yeah, um, my uh scene of the season for me goes to the scene in which we see Damon bending the knee yes, yeah, at Harrenhal. When you see him moving through the crowd now, we as an audience know, obviously, that he has come to some sort of epiphany, but as he's walking through the crowd, you can see Rhaenyra's viewing the fact that he has this army. She's in a very vulnerable position. For her, she must have been feeling absolute fear. But he comes, you know, after speculating the whole time. Where does his loyalty lie?
Speaker 1:It was just a really great moment of transition, which I think builds upon the fact that there were so many vision sequences, you might say, for Damien and Harrenhal, because I feel like if that transition happened too quickly, audiences would have done the thing that audiences do. You know why would he do that? But I think because he went and revisited his past. It was just a really great arc to see. It was such a drastic change and, as you said before, george rr martin is really good at making you like people you hate. Damon goes, bends the knee in such a solemn way. They connect, as you know, husband and wife and um and you know, rallies the army, and for me that was just like goosebumps moment. That was my scene of the season. I loved it.
Speaker 2:I'm not necessarily a big fan of the director for lore reasons that's in charge of that episode and one of the earlier episodes, but hands down, cinematography at its best. The lighting, as like Damon's standing there with the pillars of Harrenhal and the army to his side, the way he kneels down and, like the light almost shines down on him, is doing, is like finally's in the right, you know he's in. The light is perfect. It is so beautifully shot that scene. And then I just like how, if you're paying attention, you see Simon in the background, the old man that's been hanging out with Damon this whole time, as he's like clapping like a dork in the background. Just happy, they're like, yeah, they're together again, which was us watching it.
Speaker 1:yeah, and because he was like, okay, now this army and this place won't be subject to six furious dragons, because Daemon's obviously allied himself with the right place. So, yeah, I really liked that season. I thought it was good. Yeah, all right. Next award for our season celebrations goes to the Most Unlikely Allies. Frank, who goes to the Most Unlikely Allies for you this season?
Speaker 2:Rhaenyra and Alyson I mean again book-wise those two don't talk again after they separate, split off ways. Well, they kind of don't talk anyways. And so to see that they're both trying to avoid this war at all costs, and then even at the point where Alyson's like, fine, I'll just lose the war, but can I have one of my kids, helena, who's actually like the only and even willingly sacrificing Aegon, which you know, hey, aegon's not there anymore. So what's that mean? I think is really important character development. That just adds so much to the story, even if you're a book reader, especially if you're a book reader. It makes it far, far better, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:No, I agree. I think that secret alliance is definitely a really good undertone for the season in terms of House of the Dragon, season two, because you are seeing, as you said before, all of these sort of men warmongering and then the ladies sort of meeting in secret, knowing how dangerous it is, still pushing forward what they feel is right. And even though both of them are claiming to vie for the same sort of position for the people that they care about, they still know what's best for the realm, and that is not to fight with each other. So, yeah, I like that. That's really good. My unlikely allies for this season definitely goes to Aegon and Larys, because that is an alliance I did not see coming.
Speaker 1:Oh, good pick, that is a friendship that obviously is going to be beneficial for Larys, but I think also beneficial for Aegon, and I like the moment specifically where Aegon was told by Larish you know, your body's never going to be the same again. You're going to have to start using your mind, and I feel like that is something that Aegon really needed, because his transition went from you know party boy sitting on the throne with all his boys, then at the end he was burnt. He had no capacity to party any longer, in more than one sense, if you know what I'm talking about. He had no capacity to party any longer in more than one sense, if you know what I'm talking about, and all his party boys were gone either to the wall or, you know, burned by dragon fire. The last person he had left was Laris and that sort of connection. Even though I feel like there's an agenda there, I still feel like, as you said, there was that empathy, that sympathy there, and Aegon is also probably appreciative that he's not gone through this all by himself.
Speaker 1:So that is my unlikely ally for the season two. Great choice, yeah, thanks, man, I like that All right. So let's talk about the biggest player, and I said to Frank before, this isn't the one who goes out and, you know, gets all the girls or goes out partying so much. This is the one who makes the biggest move to further their position, either themselves or on the battlefield. What is your biggest player for the season of season two, frank?
Speaker 2:probably adam. Yeah, he goes from a guy who's picking up clams to now the most loyal and highest ranking knight in um in ronera's army. I mean, the other ones are kids. So, yeah, he goes from somebody who's just like, oh, look at, that dragon happens to be flying by, to like this. This guy's on top of the world now and he's amazing. So, um, all of the the valerian family definitely goes through a lot of changes, but adam and alan um, I'm just a big adam fan.
Speaker 1:Uh, I have, I have the biggest changes, I think yeah, um, just while we're on that as well, we didn't touch on it, but can you talk to me about, um? Sea smoke was the only dragon that actually went out and sought adam. Uh, that was different to any of the sort of, you know, the dragon seedings or dragon claimings that we've seen before. Why, why did he do that? Is that something that's different, inherently? Has that happened before?
Speaker 2:No, I think it's happened before. I think we're kind of seeing it with Sheepstead a little bit, but yeah, so the idea there is the fact that Alan, or ideally Laenor, is dead. In the book he is dead, and in the show it's like okay, if he's looking around then he's probably dead, and so he looks for something similar, and then Adam is just a good person who has an adventuring spirit, something that Seasmoke wants as well. So it has been done in the past. I'm trying to remember exactly how. I think it was the same way pretty much. But yeah, I think it's just because you know they have the same kind of bond and these you know I think that's just what it is, yeah sorted out through the, the forests and things like that.
Speaker 2:He's a sea smokes young too, like vermithor and silverwing, which is they were husband and wife dragons, you know back in the day, they're old, they're like older, so they like to hang out in the cave. They don't want to go out too much, they just want food. When sea smoke's still pretty young and that's like sheep stealer, which I think they did visually. They did a really good job looking at wild yeah, um, they're still young, so they're still out there fighting and hungry and want to do stuff.
Speaker 1:You know very cool. Um, my biggest player award goes to reneris in general, just for allowing that breaking of tradition for the the bastards to come and actually claim dragons. If she did not do that, then her position would have remained in the subordinate phase against Vhagar and Aemond against King's Landing. Because, as a result of her making that choice, she now has seven dragons at her beck and call and honestly, I don't know why she doesn't take those seven, go and defeat Vhagar and then ride against King's Landing. That's a possibility that she could do right now. Obviously, there'll be some political aspect to that as well, but she's in a very powerful position.
Speaker 2:Just to throw in on that. You got to remember that she's raised by the series was raised by Jaehaerys, two peacetime kings, and so she looks at it as in like so what she wants to do is attack Oldtown and Lannisters because she sees that if you do that, you take away the power from Red Keep and then you can go in there and not kill anybody in Red Keep, ideally. So she's trying to think of the ways to the minimum amount of damage is to take out the lords of the supporters and then go in without having to kill your own, because Kinslayer is a very bad title to have where you killed your own family. So she's trying to avoid that title at all costs.
Speaker 2:And boy that that title at all cost and yeah, she's trying to do things like her. Her dad and her grandfather would have done very much negotiating if it was damon. Oh my god.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they got right out of the sky yeah, yeah, I feel like that's a really good uh opposition to have in terms of, you know, amon, who is very much like that, and then reneera, who is trying to be wise, and it reminds me. You saying that reminded me of a line that she spoke, has she? She said, you know, I think it said there was 80 years of peace. If I'm going to break it, I'm going to make sure that there's a reason for it, you know. So she's that very wise, thinks through her choices and, yeah, that's probably the reason why a lot of people follow her is because she is that measured sort of ruler, which is good. All right, let's go to our toughest luck award. Which character had the toughest luck throughout this entire season? Frank?
Speaker 2:Well, you know there's a couple of them, right? Oh yeah, I'm going to give it to Eamon, just because, like he starts off like first off he accidentally killed his cousin at the end of the last season. That sucks. But he starts off being the biggest nuclear bomb there is in the world and because of and he has his own ambitions and he gets everything he wants and still messes it up and by the end he's like trying to force his sister to get on her dragon, which he just does not dread. She doesn't ever get on dream fire and he's like so back against the wall struggling. He's never played from behind before and now he's constantly playing from behind. He still has vagar, but vagar is barely listening to him. He sees now that dragon stoneonstone has enough ammo really to take him out. So he went from like the most important military asset in the world to I'm outnumbered. I'm outnumbered, I'll stay there.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's not great.
Speaker 1:I really like that as well because you know, especially in that last episode, but even throughout the season, it's almost watching Eamon slowly lose control and then in this last episode you see him do what he always does when he loses control he lashes out, he goes and he burns the town down. He forces or tries to force his sister to do something that she doesn't want to do. He is lost, and that is not the mental capacity of a ruler that we're seeing. It's definitely someone who is very emotive and very emotional and it's interesting to think as well. You know, a lot of the people in the the green faction would look at amand and vega and say that's a really powerful asset that we have, but amand would probably be the only one that knows that. Hey, yeah, vega is powerful and you know she's under my control quote but like how much really Do you know what I mean? Like everybody's got that idea that she's everything and he knows specifically. Like maybe there's something here that everybody shouldn't put their faith in.
Speaker 2:What's cool is his dad's the last person to know that.
Speaker 1:The series.
Speaker 2:His dad was the last writer for Balerion the Black Dread again the dragon that's bigger than Vhagar, and he wrote him once and was like never again, because Balerion was too much. I mean, of course he's too much he's bigger than and knows that, like we don't actually have control of them, we're this blood magic is generations old. At this point, this isn't good, and so once he wrote him, once he's like and stayed away from it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, he also was, and that's the thing too. That whole idea we've got to go to peace first, because if we use our dragons, even we will get burned by them. That was something he passed down to his daughter.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Viserys was one of the few people to outlive their dragon and he didn't take another. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:That's correct. Another is that correct? That's correct, it's usually. You only take one dragon.
Speaker 1:yeah, usually it's only one dragon, but yeah, yeah, unless you're daenerys and then you have three.
Speaker 2:Yeah she only rode one of them, though. That's the key on that one very true, all right.
Speaker 1:And the last category for our season celebrations is the award for the most character growth this season. Who's it going to be frank, who's growing the most? Who do we see?
Speaker 2:it's got to be Damon. Damon is now fully on board with team black. Yeah, yeah, it was a long walk, but he's finally where we need him to be and again that final shot with him kneeling down. That is I still for the entire season right there.
Speaker 1:I loved it, I agree yeah, that's going in the episode art. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I definitely love it.
Speaker 1:No, I absolutely agree, I think that that moment it had the build-up. Some some might argue too long as well, but you know, I feel like when we got there it was rewarding, and now you know we can see united team black moving forward with everything that they have. Uh, it's gonna be good to see, it's gonna be great, yeah, great season of television in two years time for us.
Speaker 2:Frank oh, we have a spin-off coming up, guys. Uh, night of the seven kingdoms. That's gonna be very good. If you oh they kind of overdo it on the dragons, then you're fine. Night of the Seven Kingdoms, I'm pretty sure, has no dragons.
Speaker 1:It's grounded, isn't it? It's more of a grounded story, it's very grounded.
Speaker 2:It's about a knight and his squire basically roaming the lands heading down to Dorne. It's cool.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Lastly, before I let you go, Frank and it's been amazing chatting to you too about this You're super knowledgeable about this sort of stuff, so it's been great. But what pieces of reading would you recommend for people who want something to sink their teeth into while they're waiting this two years for the next House of the Dragon to come out?
Speaker 2:Honestly, it's all good, right, but I would say Night of the seven kingdoms is a really good. It feels like the hobbit in comparison to lord of the rings, um. So if you go to the, go to the night of seven kingdoms, you're gonna get a little bit of everything. There are tagarians um, you're gonna learn about. It's actually the ancestor. They're like the great, great grandfather. Brianna tarth from game of thrones is the main character, duncan the tall, and so it's a very small book too. It's's like 350 pages. In comparison to, like, dance of the Dragons, which is the latest book in the Game of Thrones, I think it was like 1,400 pages. So it's a bite size in comparison and you'll be prepped for the new show coming up. It's all good. Yeah, that's a good video.
Speaker 1:Yep, there you go. So there you have it, guys From Frank at Geek Freaks, go and read. Or the Seven Kingdoms, rather. There you go. It's been awesome, frank. Thank you so much for joining me, as always. Guys, if you haven't already, go and follow and subscribe Everything that you see from Geek Freaks. They're an amazing place in the online community to share your fandoms and to keep up to date on all the latest news as well. I don't see anybody that is as dedicated as Frank online just to giving you the pop culture news that you need to see.
Speaker 1:I get all my pop culture news from Frank, so everybody should go and definitely you should definitely go and check out his stuff and follow him, and it's been an absolute pleasure. Frank, thank you so much for joining me. It won't be the last time that I have you on, because it's been absolutely a joy, and I wish you all the best and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:Yep, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:See you. You next time. Yep, thank you for having me see you guys later. So that was frank from the geek freaks network talking to us all about his knowledge on house of the dragon and all of george rr martin's work. Guys, it has been an amazing first few episodes for the fandom portals, so much so that I wanted to take this time to celebrate our community. And we're celebrating because not only have the fandom portals almost produced five episodes, but we have also crossed over a massive milestone we have hit over 100 downloads of the fandom portals podcast. And that is all because of you guys listening to this right now. So it's because of you and all of the reviews and all of the podcast shares that you have been doing and all of the times that you've told a friend that this show has gotten in front of the ears and eyes of all of the people that have really enjoyed it, and I can't thank you guys enough.
Speaker 1:This podcast would not happen without you. It is community driven and all of those reviews really do matter. In fact, I've got one here right now all the way from the United States, from Taff79, who says so hyped. It's early, but this podcast is already on my faves list. Aaron is knowledgeable and super entertaining. Love this show. That is a five-star review all the way from the United States. We have more from Australia.
Speaker 1:Spacey125 says a great show, great topics, well-hosted. If they haven't covered something you want to listen to, you can email them and they'll cover it. Great for entertainment and for education. That is absolutely true, spacey, and we thank you both for your five-star reviews and your votes of confidence. Keep them coming, guys. We will read them out on the show. It has been absolutely amazing connecting with you on Instagram and threads. Go to the show notes and connect with us on those social media platforms. It has been absolutely amazing to get to know you and to see us through to our next milestone on the Fandom Portals podcast journey. So this is me, aaron, signing off. I hope to always connect with respect with you guys and we'll catch you later.
