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The Fandom Portals Podcast
"Welcome to Fandom Portals—the show that explores how your favourite fandoms can help you learn and grow!" 🎙️✨
Each episode, we explore TV, movies, comics, and games to reveal how these worlds and the characters in them help us learn about resilience, courage, friendship, and more.
The Fandom Portals Podcast is hosted by Aaron Davies and Adam Brasher, two friends who are obsessed with fandoms, storytelling, and building a community where passion and positivity come first. From Marvel to Middle-earth, Star Wars to indie comics, we dive deep into the stories you love — and how they help us learn and grow. ✨
The Fandom Portals Podcast
DragonHeart (1996) - Part One: Draco and Sean Connery: How Motion Capture Changed Cinema, Bringing Dragons to Life.
(PART 1) Episode Summary:
In this episode of The Fandom Portals Podcast, Aaron and Brash take a deep dive into Dragonheart (1996), the fantasy adventure that revolutionized CGI with its pioneering work on Draco, voiced by Sean Connery. They explore how motion capture technology was first used, the film’s box office success, and how Sean Connery landed the role of Draco.
Plus, they share community reactions from Threads, Instagram, and Reddit, where nostalgic fans discuss why Dragonheart remains a cult classic.
⏳ Timestamps & Topics:
03:16 - First Takes: Our First Encounters with Dragonheart
05:09 - Brash’s First Viewing – The Corner Store VHS Discovery
06:19 - Aaron’s Cinema Experience at Age 6 & Childhood Obsession
08:42 - Community Reactions: Nostalgia & Modern Viewpoints
09:35 - Does Dragonheart Still Hold Up? Reddit & Threads Discussion
12:38 - Fandom Fact Face-Off: Trivia Battle Begins
13:26 - Dennis Quaid’s On-Set Injury – What Did He Break?
14:58 - The Academy Award Nomination That Surprised Everyone
16:06 - The Lord of the Rings Connection – Hidden Scene References
17:52 - Who Almost Played Bowen? Surprising Casting Choices
19:47 - Sean Connery’s Role as Draco – Why He Was the Only Choice
22:27 - Set Secrets: The Groundbreaking CGI That Changed Hollywood
27:05 - Animating Draco – The First Fully CGI Character with Motion Capture
30:17 - Why Sean Connery’s Facial Expressions Were Key to Draco’s Success
33:16 - How Actors Performed Against Tennis Balls & Cutouts
35:25 - Jurassic Park vs. Dragonheart: Which CGI Holds Up Better?
41:46 - Why Dragonheart Was a Pioneer for Future CGI Films
42:46 - Sign-Off & What’s Coming in Part Two
Key Takeaways:
- Draco was the first fully CGI character with advanced motion capture technology.
- Sean Connery’s voice performance added emotional depth, making Draco feel real.
- The film was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Visual Effects but lost to Independence Day.
- Jurassic Park’s blend of CGI and animatronics holds up better, but Dragonheart was a technical milestone.
- The film’s mix of medieval adventure and humor created a cult following despite mixed reviews.
📢 Apple Podcast tags: Dragonheart, Sean Connery, Dennis Quaid, fantasy movies, medieval films, cult classics, CGI history, motion capture, movie trivia, film
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Hello everybody and welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast, the podcast that explores how fandoms can help us learn and grow. This week we are looking at Dragonheart. Brash and I dive into the CGI technology that was used to bring the dragon of Draco to life back in 1996. This revolutionary technology was one of the first times that motion capture was used, and we also explore how they landed Sean Connery in the role of Draco. Make sure you also tune in to part two of this Dragonheart episode, where we go into a really deep dive on the film. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Fandom Portals podcast, as always, and we hope you enjoy. Hello everybody and welcome to the fandom portals podcast. I'm here joined by brash, as always. How you going brash bad yourself, not bad at all. That's to hear. That's good to hear. Today we are here to talk about a movie made in 1996, directed by Rob Cohen. It is indeed Dragonheart. It's written by Patrick Reed Johnson and Charles Edward Pogue, starring Dennis Quaid and Sean Connery. Do you like my accent? It?
Speaker 2:actually wasn't too bad actually, yeah, I do.
Speaker 1:You'll hear a bit of that through the episode, ladies and gentlemen, but before we do that, we're going to jump into our gratitudes and growth segment Now. Each week, we begin by sharing a personal gratitude for the week or something we need growth in, and I might go first. This week, I'm grateful for my mom. She came over and spent some time with the grandkids, which she does quite often, and just watching her with them is really nice to see. My kids adore and she's still in her late 60s and she still plays the Floor is Lava with them, which is amazing because I'm 35, and some days it's a struggle for me to do that. So shout out to mum, shout out to mum Shout out to mum.
Speaker 1:What about you, Brash?
Speaker 2:I've got a gratitude and that is for your average everyday corded vacuum cleaners. That is a good gratitude Because I had the robot vac. The battery died on it. It's getting sent away to get fixed. I also had one of the stick vacuum cleaners, like the cordless ones where you charge it up, the batteries never last. It lasts like two seconds and it's like dirt or small rocks, it just doesn't even pick them up.
Speaker 2:So and I'm like I need a vacuum cleaner because my house is full of dog fur. The cordless vacuum cleaner is just not doing it, it's just jamming up. It just sucks $100 Kmart average. But bagless bagless is also better bagless vacuum cleaner. This house has never looked cleaner. I absolutely love it. I just need to get a dog attachment now so I can brush Ace and get all these fluff off of him with the brush attachment and I think we'll be golden.
Speaker 1:We'll be good to go yeah, look at him over there waiting for his. He doesn't know what's coming, brash, he doesn't know how clean he's gonna be. But, yeah, good gratitude. That's awesome, because sometimes the simple stuff is all you need, you know.
Speaker 2:And it comes with like five different attachments. But do you know how? I know we're old, we're talking about vacuum cleaners On a podcast. And I am just smiling ear to ear talking about this vacuum cleaner.
Speaker 1:And you know what else? It has five attachments. We digress, we digress. We are indeed talking about Dragonheart today, and if you have not seen it, it was indeed made in 1999. It actually had a budget of $57 million, and do you think it was profitable, brash?
Speaker 2:I want to say, I want to say like just purely out of nostalgia, I want to say, yes, it was Because I think at the time there wasn't much more like it. Like the closest thing I could think of in the 1990s sort of range of this sort of fantasy kind of movie would be like the Dungeons and Dragons movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some part. I mean, there was like historically accurate, epic ones like Braveheart and things like that. But you're right, this was very unique in its genre in 1996. It actually did make a pretty good profit. It. It was $115 million, which is considered a success on a $57 million budget. Most films around that time were being made for around $60 million-ish, so it was on the cheaper side of that. What do you think? Most of the budget went to CGI.
Speaker 2:Absolutely CGI 100%.
Speaker 1:Yep, as opposed to other action blockbuster films thinking about today. But most of the time in that sort of era in the 90s, the budget of $60 or so million would go to the leading actors' salaries, because there was a massive bump during that time. But let's get into our first takes segment. All right, no-transcript, as we always put a post every week on our Instagram and Threads and Reddit that you can react to on what you thought of the movie. So, brash, you can start out first Now. Remember this is Dragonheart. It is a movie about the last dragon and a disillusioned dragon slaying knight that must unite to stop an evil king who's granted partial immortality.
Speaker 2:Well, I first came across this because I'm a nerd, first and foremost One of us, that's it. The corner store is where I came across this movie first. Vcr.
Speaker 1:Was it in the bargain bin?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, it was on, because this would have been back in the 1990s. It was in. We had a corner store a few corners around from where we lived in my step-by-less and we used to go there once a week and the corner store we used to buy a 50 cent bag of lollies and we used to be able to pick out I think it was two movies for the weekend from the shelf. Because the corner store had not like your selection that you used to get from like video easy and stuff like that, because there wasn't really well there was like, yeah, corner stores got the, the, the weekly releases that they'd then put on their shelves for you to to go and have a little little peruse through.
Speaker 1:It was like a little side hustle that the corner stores were going through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they had like they'd have one you can hire for a week or one the ones you can hire for a night. So we used to. We used to get one that we'd hire for a night. So we used to get one that we'd hire for a night and one that we'd hire for a week. And yeah, Dragonheart was one of the ones that I saw and was like I want that one.
Speaker 1:Was it an overnighter? It was an overnighter At the time. Yeah, what did you think about it when you first watched it in 1996 or 97?
Speaker 2:when it came out on VCR time, like everything I know we're talking about later and all that, but like just the way, like the cgi and everything like that, just for me at that time period was amazing because we were used to like 2d mortal combat yeah, or jim henson's puppeteers, yeah, worth of monster shop and like you could compare it to, like the never-ending story in falco like you've got that sort of realism there and and that dragon also talked like draco does in this movie, but they look extremely different, yeah because you've got the CGI dragon of Draco and then you've got Falco, who looks like one of those Chinese dancing dragons.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, what do you mean? Back in 1996, when I was 6 years old, getting the video from the corner store?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, me for my first takes. I actually saw this movie in the cinema and I was six years old and it was probably the oldest movie that I'd seen for my age at the time Now we talked earlier about your first movie or when you were six years old, seven years old, you saw the Crow, I saw Dragonheart and I was like taken away by the action of it, fully immersed in the story world where it was just like a medieval night sort of setting. It was definitely my first that I can remember. I was taken by my grandma because she always used to take us to the movies every here and there with her money and, yeah, fully grateful for that because I reckon it fully installed my love of movies, but for this one in particular, my love of, like dragon and night kind of movies, and I remember it having a pretty significant impact on me because I used to get obsessed, like when I go and see a movie I'd get completely obsessed and I'd go home and I'd try and remember, scene by scene, what happened and I'd write it down. Like it was a play which is embarrassed to admit, but um, like I'd write down the character's name and then the dialogue that I remember. So even back then, it was like it was a pretty significant kind of movie for me. It held a lot of nostalgia. I cried at the end, yeah, I think for obvious reasons, but most notably the amazing score and yeah. So it definitely holds this awesome place in my heart and I loved it and I'd seen it again, probably like I don't know 10 or so years later and then 15 years later after that, and I haven't seen it for a very, very long time. And then we did it for this podcast and then, yeah, yeah, we might get into that today. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll see how that. That's the thing I want to really sort of dive into today the fact of what it looks like now in a 2025 sort of atmosphere. But, yeah, we'll flick to our social medias because this one we put up on Reddit and it actually kind of blew up.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of people that feel pretty powerfully about this one. We've got 317 upvotes and 130 commenters. One person said Ludic Bath. I loved this film as a kid. I suspect it's one of those films that if you watched it now, I'd think it was foolish, or I would think that I was a tasteless check trick. Ned replied to them and said nah, man, go and watch it. I and said nah, man, go and watch it. I feared the same thing until I watched it last year and I had a genuinely great time Having Sean Connery as the dragon was a masterstroke in casting. And then they went on to say that they hope that they gave it a chance. Check yourself on Reddit, said I'm in my 40s and I recently watched it with my 11 year old daughter. I echo the above comments. It 100% holds up and I was pleasantly surprised at how good the entire movie was, not just the effects. What's more is I watched it with my daughter, who absolutely loved it, so I highly recommend it.
Speaker 2:And that's kind of something that I would like to do when my kids get older is watch it and see it through the lens of a child again, Just to see, like look on their face on certain parts and be like, ooh yeah.
Speaker 1:It still brings joy Exactly. Ooh, yeah, it still brings joy Exactly Because then I think if it doesn't hold up like if that's the verdict we come to, whether that's just an effect of growing up and the magic of movie going is like a childhood experience. It's really funny to see that people all over the world would kind of experience it the same way that you did, which is like the communal thing about movies that I like. We also had Enlowski who said I remember when it came out it was revolutionary for the CGI that they used. I haven't seen it recently, but I remember being amazed by how realistic the dragon looked. When I was a kid we had Frank on our threads from Geek Freaks that said I cannot tell you how many times I rewatched this movie. Billy D915 from Threads said this was my introduction to David Thouless. He played Aynan. He did play Aynan we're going to get into.
Speaker 2:I love him as an actor. Him in Harry Potter, just him in anything is just amazing. However, I have to point out this it's just who he is. There's no stabbing him or anything like that. He's still amazing and everything like that, but his voice is very whiny, yes, very whiny voice, which is incredibly suited to this character, absolutely it suits this character to a T oh man.
Speaker 1:Maybe that was a conscious choice which incredibly suited this character, Absolutely Suited this character to a T yeah and then oh man. Maybe that was a conscious choice, I don't know, because we're definitely meant to feel like we hate Iron in this movie. It's not a hidden fact, but yes, I definitely agree. I think he does have a very significant or a very noticeable voice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like, don't get me wrong, I love him, don't get me wrong, I love him and I love him as an actor. He's a phenomenal actor, just the voice. When he was playing Iron man I was like, oh, it just made the fact that he's a Prince Turn King always Bratty as well. Yeah, bratty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he is a brat. Nope, I 100% agree. Oh man, we have some other people in our threads community. We had mbrawly88 that said this movie was such a staple of my childhood, I loved it so much and always cried at the end. Same M same. We also had Benjamin Raffi who said I was obsessed with this movie but now it looks weird but also it has dragons in it, and I stand by my child's opinion. So your younger self's opinion, so me too, benjamin Raffi, thank you very much for all of our threads and Redditors for commenting on our podcast.
Speaker 1:So just to get a bit of a scope on what this movie and a bit of a scale on what this movie means to some people, it seems like it definitely. The word nostalgia hits me brash when I'm sort of thinking about this one and looking at it through a modern lens, all right. And um, looking at it through a modern lens, all right, we might jump into our fandom fact face-off. All right, our fandom fact face-off is where one hosts ask the other a series of trivia questions associated with the movie. The host with the most collected points from the fandom fact face-off segment will shout their opposing co-host to to an all-expenses paid trip to the movie cinema. Now, last time, brash, you won. You've won two times in a row and we're starting a new round right now.
Speaker 1:We went and saw sonic and then last time we haven't done an episode on it, but we saw captain america, the brave new world, and while we were there the movie was okay, it wasn't too bad. But there was an earthquake. Like we were, all was all okay, everything was fine. It was like a 4.3 magnitude earthquake in our town and it happened while Harrison Ford was riding on an elliptical, yeah, and then the earthquake happened. I was like man, he's really riding that thing.
Speaker 2:I was like well, did this theater become 4D? Are we getting effects? Is it like if you get sprayed with water? Do?
Speaker 1:we actually get wet. If you get sprayed with water, you actually get wet. Yep, exactly, yeah. So just so everybody knows that did take place. We may do an episode on it this month or, you know, it depends on how much time we have. But we are starting a brand new fandom fact face-off scoring card. So scores are currently 0-0. Brash, do you want to kick us off with the first question?
Speaker 2:Okay, so in a duel between David Quaid's character Bowen and David's character Einan Quaid broke something.
Speaker 1:What was it? Dennis Quaid, while fighting David Lewis, they had a couple of sword fights. I know they probably did some choreography for it.
Speaker 2:They probably broke about a million swords.
Speaker 1:David broke something on his body in a duel, oh, like Aragorn broke his toe. Well, I know, when I was sword fighting with my brothers we'd always hit knuckles, so I'm going to go finger David broke something on his body in a duel, oh like.
Speaker 2:Aragorn broke his toe. Let's go Well, I know when I was sword fighting with my brothers.
Speaker 1:We'd always hit knuckles so I'm going to go finger. It was his finger and he spent the last two weeks of filming in a plaster cast. Oh man, I didn't even notice. I think it was filmed out of order. Yeah, so picking up those scenes might be hard to do do. But yeah, I did notice a lot of sword fighting scenes in this, this movie, and you know, especially at the start. I don't know how many movies start with a master dueling an apprentice with play swords in an area that has lots of rock formations. I can think of at least. Troy is one. Yeah, this movie is another. Yeah, it's amazing how common. You know, if I had a nickel, for every time it happened I'd have two to three nickels and that's not a lot.
Speaker 2:I mean a lot of people fight and like just look at law of the rings, how many times they fight in like broken down places, like in nearly every single movie. Pretty much, yeah, there's a ruin that they fight in all right, let's go to my question.
Speaker 1:Yes, so it is one. Nil brash, this is your question. We know that this movie for the time had some pretty revolutionary cgi to it, some animation and some creature design. This movie was celebrated for that in this manner. What was it? Did it win?
Speaker 2:an Emmy Award Close.
Speaker 1:Academy Award. Yes, there, it is Okay. So this movie was nominated for an Academy Award. It was nominated for an Oscar in 1996. It was nominated for Best Visual Effects. It did was nominated for best visual effects. It did not win. It was beaten by independence day I mean for its large-scale destruction scenes and um. But it's funny to say, you know if you introduce the movie dragonheart to people and you say I'm just watching the academy award nominated movie dragonheart imagine that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, saying that now yeah.
Speaker 1:So I thought that was interesting to bring up because you know you've got to look at it through the lens of the time, in 1996. When you're looking at this it's actually like a really revolutionary piece of work, 100%. But you know, I'm glad that we're reviewing the Academy Award nominated movie Dragonheart today I thought that would be an interesting one to go.
Speaker 2:So the scene where Bowen shoots an arrow the ballista arrow at Draco and he falls in the river is an homage to another scene from a very popular novel series no, I'm thinking Moby Dick.
Speaker 1:There's harpoons that shoot a big whale, that go into the water there when he's flying through the sky. That's like yeah, and you can tell that when it happened twice. The first time he moved over and he got shot. He caught the ballista and then fell into the water, and then the second time they literally just flipped the CGI footage and he was flying the other way. Is it the Lord of the Rings?
Speaker 2:It is the Lord of the Rings when Bard shoots.
Speaker 1:Smaug. Oh, bard, the bowman from Smaug, yes, in the Hobbit Perfect, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I think in the books Smaug pretends to get hit and falls into the water. It does the same thing and then comes back out afterwards.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep, but they don't show that in the actual movies. In the movies he just gets shot. He just gets shot in the direct right spot for the black arrows to pierce his amazing dragon scales.
Speaker 2:Yes, so yeah, on shooting an arrow at Draco above the lake and is in homage to Bard shooting the arrow at Smug in the Hobbit.
Speaker 1:Very nice. Do I get the points for that? I can't get it. Very good, yes, I'll take it.
Speaker 2:Draco yeah, Draco even falls into the lake and plays dead.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that scene because especially when he doesn't sink and he's watching all the people fucking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a swamp.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you think they'd test that beforehand. But yeah, funny thing, and then you know those cannibals go and try to eat the people. So, yeah, all right. So the movie dragonheart was, uh, originally pitched to be directed by someone called richard donner uh, you might know them because they're famous for directing superman, the original movie, and Lethal Weapon in 1987. However, he departed the project due to a particular reason. What do you think that was? Why would he depart the project? And then Rob Cohen, the director, came onto the project.
Speaker 2:I have no idea. Why would he leave? Would it appear to go on? Because he had another project that he had to do?
Speaker 1:Not quite. No, I'll give you a clue. So Richard Donner had done Superman the movie, which was pretty light-hearted and comedic, and then he'd done Lethal Weapon a little bit after. So he'd done a light-hearted movie and then a really sort of serious, sort of toned movie oh, was it meant to be more serious? And it wasn't Exactly right so and it wasn't Exactly right so he wanted to perform it as a little bit more of an epic. Yeah, which actually I probably would have maybe even preferred. Yeah, yeah, well, he definitely would have. And the studio Universal Studio was holding out on the budget of like they weren't going to give them the budget, unless you know, it hit a certain sort of benchmark in terms of it has to be suited for kids or something.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, yeah. So because of that reason, because it was those creative differences and those challenges, he, he left the project respectfully and then rob cohen took over and directed a brighter and lighter and more comedic sort of fantasy like tone that was more suited for a family-friendly sort of audience. So two for two is the score right now, two to me and two for you, and there's one question for you remaining and one question for me remaining okay.
Speaker 2:So my question now there's so many of them and they're actually all really well known, so I'll just get you to name three of them out of I think there's like 12. So the lead role of bowen was it was rejected by one famous actor but also had a considerable part was a whole bunch of other famous actors.
Speaker 1:He named three of them. Three of them, okay. So I did read that possibly Liam Neeson was in the running, so Liam Neeson was the one who was offered the role and rejected it, declined. Yeah. So the others in that sort of vein during this time let's go with, I mean, sylvester Stallone.
Speaker 2:No, but close to like there's someone who's close to that vein.
Speaker 1:Not Arnie. No way, arnie, yep Arnold Schwarzenegger. I'm assuming because he played Hercules, and he played Conan as well. Yep, and then Christopher Reeve. Was that one of them who played Superman? Ah, no, no, hmm here's another hint.
Speaker 2:Okay, you've got a friend in me, tom.
Speaker 1:Hanks, tom Hanks, wow, I couldn't imagine him with that wig on yeah, yep, well, that's three.
Speaker 2:So you got three Arnie, liam and Tom. What were some of the others? Some of the other ones? So we had Pierce Brosnan. I'd see that, kevin.
Speaker 1:Bacon Look, I love Kevin Bacon in anything. Harrison Ford I could also see that. Mel Gibson Well, look after Braveheart. Probably not, but I could see that definitely. And Patrick Swayze, and Patrick Swayze.
Speaker 2:All of them seem okay to me. All of them seem like, really, and they're all fairly big actors along with Dennis Quaid.
Speaker 1:It's funny how they had a whole plethora of actors ready to play or pitched to play Bowen. To me, in my unprofessional opinion, that kind of screams like they're throwing a cast net out and whoever will take the script, they'll take. You know what I mean. You know how some people write a screenplay and they're like it is written specifically for for this intended person. I did watch the the making of this movie, and the director, rob cohen, actually said, you know, when he was talking about the dragon of draco and the voice, and he knew that it had to be an a-list kind of actor and somebody whose voice was recognizable, he said he considered one actor and one actor only for that, and that actor was sean, sean Connery. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, um, to be fair, all the dragons in all the series is not quite all, but pretty much like in another, another, another, two of the movies the dragons voice played by, like big stars, really, yeah, ben Kingsley is one. No, he plays. He plays it in the second movie, mate, and in the third movie. Third or the fourth movie I think it might be the fourth movie it's played by Patrick Stewart. Oh my gosh, in these low-budget movies you'll find that the voice actors, like the people who do voice acting especially for dragons, like even in the Merlin TV show, yeah, john Hurt, john Hurt. Yeah, these low-budget movies they get these really well known actors that voice the dragons.
Speaker 1:There must be something really appealing to actors to come in and play such a majestic creature like a dragon like you got like come back for Smough, smough yeah it just, yeah, it seems like.
Speaker 2:It just seems like a thing where, like creatures that are voiced by people, it's only someone like sort of famous. I don't know how many times Patrick Stewart's voiced Something. That is mythological too.
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly right, and Sean Connery actually did say as well this is probably his easiest role that he's done because he didn't have to do hair and makeup. He sat in a studio delivered his lines. They did do some capturing stuff on him but yeah, pretty easy payday for him, which is very appealing for voice actors.
Speaker 1:So keep it going in that vein, I think, because, yeah, he was definitely a drawcard for this movie, dragonheart, and I think also Dennis Quaid would have been a drawcard as well. Might talk about his performance a little bit later on. All right, so the current score is three to two, with my question to Brash left to go. All right, so there are quite a few real-world elements in this and also some mythological elements in this movie of Dragonheart. What mythological tales were the inspiration of some of the elements in dragon heart, in terms of, in particular, bowen and the knights of the old code?
Speaker 1:uh I don't come a lot, surely? Yep, yep, absolutely so. It's king arthur and the knights of the round table. Uh, they even go to sit at his resting place or his spire. That's right In the movie.
Speaker 2:That's the Avalon we're going to find is yeah, is based off it, yeah, yep.
Speaker 1:And then you know that awesome scene which tugs on the heartstrings, where Bowen goes and recites his new oath and he thinks he's doing it absolutely alone. And you know, out of the shadows comes this 25-foot dragon. That was completely hidden and he just absolutely comes and, just you know, puts the wing over him to shelter him from the rain, and you know that's worded as you know, the dragon hug, I guess you could say Apparently. That was storyboarded in the screenplay and there's actually a novelization as well of this book and it said that in that sort of moment. That scene was in there too and it sort of plays on that timeless fairy tale quality and it resonates with those fantasy fans where it sort of ties it to the real world.
Speaker 1:One thing that I did notice that also tied it to the real world, if you notice what happened at the very start of the movie, that it said when the king was raiding the initial village, just across the bottom of the screen, randomly, it just said, you know, 1934, ad. Like why do we need to know that? Sure, why not? Yeah, okay, but yeah, that was just another, another sort of element that tied it into to the realism for people. But yeah, I really liked that.
Speaker 2:It was that that sort of honor and discovering moral redemption was central for those Arthurian legends and that sort of brought it back into this with Bowen's character too well, I do, like later on, where they start they bring in in the new, because I haven't watched them yet, because, yeah, I'm probably gonna watch them because I've been reading up the synopsis but one of the movies I'm not sure if it's the second one or the third one actually brings druids in which, like Merlin all that was famously meant like now because called them. But like, say, if you've watched the King Arthur movie with Clive Owen where Merlin and his faction are actually like druids and stuff like that, and even in the Merlin TV show I think they were called druids and stuff like that- yeah, Well, even Aynan's mother sort of has a connection to dragons in this movie and you can see she's got like some accoutrement and various different sort of symbology of dragons in her space at the start.
Speaker 1:So you can kind of tell of symbology of dragons in her space at the start. So you can kind of tell and Draco also mentions the Kelts are people who believed in the dragons and people that sort of held their kind in esteem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and druids are a big thing in there. And yeah, druids are very sort of.
Speaker 1:Celtic in nature and origin too. So yeah, one thing I'm very worried about with those sequels because I'm interested in watching them too, having never watched them before is I don't want them to go too mystical, because I kind of like the, the realism nature of these movies as much as dragons aren't quote aren't real yeah, I understand in saying like there's druids, I don't really suspect it being much of like too magic involved, though I believe the one with the druids in there, the evil king curses the dragon, there's curses at least well, those curses at least.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess in this one, you know we say it's grounded, but you know a dragon shares a heart with a man and brings him back to life. So that's kind of you know, a little bit of magical sort of you know who do magician hospital stuff in there too. So all right. So with that, I all yeah. So we're all tied up, which means that the next time we do the fandom fact face off, we will be.
Speaker 2:So no more clues, no more clues, yeah, no more clues all right, if we're gonna do it, give a clue maybe to make it so easy.
Speaker 1:All right, let's move on to our set secrets segment. All right, the set secrets segment, which is hard to say, is where hosts take a look behind the scenes of our focus movie to give you all the information on what went right and what went wrong and what was interesting about the way that the movie was made. This is where we kind of look at some behind the scenes and some technical aspects of the movie. So you guys can, you know, tell some facts to all your friends about the movies that you love to see. So this time, brash, I specifically want to kind of talk about the revolution that was dragon bringing Draco to life and bringing Draco to the screen. So when we're talking about this, it was actually the first time that a fully CGI character was on screen. How do you think the CGI held up?
Speaker 2:To be honest, I didn't mind it, like I've seen movies nowadays that are worse. Absolutely 100%. I fully agree.
Speaker 1:I've seen movies nowadays that are worse, absolutely.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent. I fully agree. And you know, when this script was initially pitched, when it was first created, they thought it was amazing story, fully heartfelt, great characters, good relationship between dragon and you know night. The only thing that held a lot of people back from jumping onto it was obviously the technology hadn't been invented to fully realize that dragon character in a meaningful and very visual kind of way. So they were actually doing things in this movie using technology that hadn't really been invented yet, and even things like face mapping.
Speaker 1:So when you're looking at Draco and he's doing some very expressive scenes with eyebrows and lip syncing and the movement of his tongue and the movement of his jaw and things while he's speaking, it's actually the first time that that's ever been done and those motions and movements were modeled off of Sir Sean Connery himself. But the amazing part for me was that they also had to be all done manually on the computer. So they actually had to physically move the eyebrow muscle and they had to move the lips to match the words, because the dots that they'd put on people's faces to do face mapping that technology hadn't been invented yet. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So they used this software called Elias Power and they really tried to focus on real life textures and the structure of his body, and the most amazing part for me, though, was that facial muscle and expression when he would be talking, and making him almost like a human kind of character, because I think that if you were going to portray a relationship between Bowen and a dragon, him being a dragon slayer, if the dragon was too monstrous, the audience wouldn't be able to connect as well as they did. That being coupled with the fact that the dragon's voice is Sean Connery, who is, you know, very honorable His Scottish heritage plays well into the legendary mythos of dragons. He sounds like he belongs in the part and the way that he can convey anger, but also gravity and compassion. He does an amazing performance, I think, in this, and it's mirrored on Draco's face very, very well.
Speaker 2:So, for me, it's a double-edged sword, because I don't know if we're going to talk about this later, but for me the story wasn't quite how I remembered it, Mm-hmm. So there was parts there like spoiler alert, when the female dragon's killed and Bowen tells Draco that ah, that was me, and Draco gets upset about it, and then two seconds later he's like hey, let's be friends.
Speaker 2:But like that initial anger and the facial expressions coming from Draco Sean Conner, like is just like you feel it like reverberate through your body when you like, you feel like you're in trouble. Almost it's like damn. I'd hate for Sean Connery to be angry at me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can see it as well, because they use that downward facing shot, so you feel powerless as he is like talking and roaring down to you shot. So you feel powerless as he is like talking and roaring down to you. But also the way that they animate his eyebrows, and you know the expression on his jaw as he does that as well. You know, using those early sculpting and 3d modelings. Yeah, I thought it was really sort of awesome how they could portray so many emotions, because it would have taken so many, oh, so long, so many hours of manpower. Yeah, that's probably why it's so expensive, though.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and that's why it still is so expensive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you know, even in moments in the movie where he was being like sarcastic for example, where they're sitting by the campfire and Bowen talks about his trauma with Draco and he says, you know, a long time ago there was a dragon he's like why do you hate us so much? And he says, well, long time ago a dragon gave his heart to my friend iron and poisoned him basically and corrupted him and drake, who got really angry and reactive and then he pulled it back and you can see all of those emotions on this dragon's face. And you know, in this day and age when you see that kind of thing we kind of take it for granted. But this was the first time people saw on screen, on camera, an actual, imaginary creature doing those kinds of things and reacting in those kinds of ways. Another scene that I really like that shows a lot of emotion and loyalty from sean connery is like the absolute charisma that he shows when he meets cara and she's sitting on the rocks and he's singing her a song
Speaker 2:and then you know, you see, that sean connery bond kind of like, that kind of like seemed like, like I wouldn't be surprised if that was ablib from sean doing that. Yep, yep, I would not be surprised as well that like because we, when there's a singing to it on the rock, I'm like drake actually be doing that with serenading a few of the song, and then I'm like that just seems like something sean connery would do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, for that part at least, they would have probably been trying to play on that, that mythological element where dragons are really enamored by maidens, yeah, uh, and that sort of uh connection through that. But what I really loved about that sort of aspect was I I read through the um, through some of the articles that were created at the time, and the the director, rob cohen, during post production he still had 13 months of post-production after filming Wrapped because he obviously had so much work to do with CGI. So he actually went to work on another movie called Daylight, which starred Sylvester Stallone, and he would actually satellite conference call into his animators in Los Angeles which was also revolutionary at the time and he would try to talk them through how he wanted them to animate the scene and he found it really difficult to do. So what he did was he hired an editor and he got that editor to go through like 40 of Sean Connery's films and he said what I want you to do is find all the times that there is a close up on Sean's face and edit those little clips out. So the editor did that and he said OK, now that you've done that, put all of these clips into groups where Sean is happy, he's angry, whether he is surprised, whether he's being suave, put them all together as little sort of clips and videos. So then when he would talk to his animators and he said, okay, in this scene Draco is going to be angry, so they'd pull out the angry group of clips and they'd play those clips and then they could use Sean Connery's face to actually map how Draco would look in those kinds of emotions.
Speaker 1:So I think from listening to Rob Cohen talk about that, this was like his baby, his film that he was so impassioned with and I think that sort of shows on the screen in terms of how much care was taken in Draco and how much emotional resonance the story has as well. But I think without his dedication it definitely would have. He knew at the time as well he was working on a revolutionary piece of cinema. Another really awesome thing about the production of this movie in terms of draco was a lot of the actors were actually performing against cutouts and silhouette heads and two tennis balls that look like eyes.
Speaker 2:You can imagine how difficult that would be and you hear that in any movie where they've had to, that, where they're like that's the most difficult part is trying to like act against something that's not there and try and portray the emotions when you're just looking at nothing that's exactly it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because some of the scenes, especially with dennis quaid and bow and he gets a bad rap for his acting sometimes, but he has to deliver some of the most emotional scenes in this to like two tennis balls and sometimes that can be extremely difficult for him to do and he also said he found it pretty difficult as well. I think that, um, in terms of how dragons have been animated from here on out, like dragonheart was the first cgi creature that had that facial expressions and those personalities. When we're looking at other sort of dragons in motion capture we talked earlier about smalg, benedict cumberbatch did the same thing, but I think his physical performance could be mapped and so could his facial expression. So you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because he's behind the scenes of that one. He's got the full suit on and everything like that and he's fully like, like moving his head and everything around, like he's like a snake and dragon. I always look at that out of context.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and he just looks like he's so into it. One thing that this film does get a little bit of a criticism towards, in terms of why this CGI sort of can look a little bit here and there at points, is one way that CGI creatures look really at home in their environment is the lighting and the shadowing techniques that they do to blend them in, and sometimes I don't think that hits quite right with Draco and I think the CGI and the lighting techniques that they do to blend them in, and sometimes I don't think that hits quite right with Draco and I think the CGI and the lighting techniques that they used. They just weren't consistent and there was no technology to assist them in the time and in that way, so that blending didn't really happen. So you know the the people that were doing it could only do what they could do with the technology they had at the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which, like if this movie was to be made nowadays, like it'd probably be something pretty phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, especially if as much care was taken to animate the dragon as they did in this one, because you knew that that was the pull for the movie. You know there was those sweeping shots that sort of combined with the CGI that really sort of helped it get pushed across. But also landing that actor of Sean Connery to do that voice role was definitely a big push too. But this was a CGI pioneer, you know, and we're probably going to go into it with our devil's avocado question coming up. But there was some CGI and some elements that sort of came before this that very much influenced it in the way of Jurassic Park. But then after this, you know, years later, we have Reign of Fire. Have you seen Reign of Fire, Brash?
Speaker 1:Yes, I have seen Reign of Fire, I do like Reign of Fire and that one has like a better looking dragon, but I think it's like less of a less personality obviously through that. It's just like a monstrous kind of dragon and then it culminates in Smaug and the Hobbit in 2013. But I'm going to give you our devil's avocados question now, and it has to do with jurassic park.
Speaker 1:you ready yeah, here we go. All right, our devil's avocado question segment is where hosts ask us, ask a series of questions designed to analyze alternate aspects of the film or the media. This may be an alternate ending, a casting choice, it could be a story beat altogether or a brand new thing altogether. So today, brash what I want your opinion on, and our devil's avocado question is, uh, jurassic park, looking back at that, that was made in 1993, this was made in 1996. Which animation do you think is better? Jurassic park? I have to say, yeah, a lot of people mirror your opinion. Jurassic park holds up today and is considered to be like a work of art.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I suppose with with Jurassic Park, though they've used full on animatronics.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that's, yeah, that's the thing we kind of wanted to get into here. You know, jurassic Parks, they, they, they blended, they did a blended approach. So the question being you know, why is Jurassic Park so celebrated as having CGI that holds up today, while Dragon is often looked at by some and seen as a clunky sort of representation of CGI?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the problem is it being a dragon. It'd be hard to do an animatronic of a dragon that can fly and all the rest of it. Just trying to make that happen just boggles my mind for that time period, whereas when Bolin was in Draco's mouth, that scene there I reckon that's probably the best scene involving the dragon and his look. For me, all the rest of them, like you can tell, cgi. But it wasn't too bad, but it was still old school CGI.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think a dragon character interacting with human characters or interacting with the environment, that's the hardest thing to do. School CGI, yeah, and I think a dragon character interacting with human characters or interacting with the environment, that's the hardest thing to do in CGI nowadays. Doing it with those sort of rough technology, that's probably even harder. So the way that they were able to incorporate Bowen into some of those scenes with Draco was really, really awesome. Just some statistics I've pulled up. With Jurassic Park in 1993, they did blend CGI with the animat really, really awesome. Just some statistics I've pulled up.
Speaker 1:With Jurassic Park in 1993, they did blend CGI with the animatronics, like you said, and that realism really sort of sticks out. The T-Rexes and the Velociraptors were like a new standard in photorealism and lighting integration. The way that they blended shadows was really good there. But there's only six minutes of CGI in that whole movie and you can probably tell which ones they are like in dragon heart there. I think what the the producer said was there was 26 or 23 minutes worth of draco screen time, or 218 scenes that they had to animate, which is way more than six minutes, and they didn't have the the benefit of relying on animatronics as well, to really ground the characters in in that sort of environment, which was hard. When you're looking at this cgi you did say before, you reckon it sort of holds up because you've seen Worse, worse, absolutely, and I kind of I tend to agree. You can definitely look at it and you can tell it's old.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't think doing animatronic and CGI would have worked for Draco, because with Jurassic Park you look at the dinosaurs there's no real interaction between them and humans except them eating them. Yep, that's absolutely correct. So there's no, whereas with a dragon in this case, in Dragonheart, the dragon can speak, it talks to the other characters. So it has to have that sort of you have to be able to see that sort of the emotions of the how it's speaking on its face. Yeah, it'd be hard to do that with an animatronic without it looking too mechanical, mechanical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I 100% agree, because like with the velociraptors.
Speaker 2:you see them like, you see the eyes of velociraptors and you see them go from like being like open eyed to and narrowing slightly, but then that's like the extent of what they can do, like sort of just open, like shutters, and it's like and like for just a dinosaur that's trying to kill the humans. That's fine because you don't need to pay too close attention to its face, whereas when Draco's trying to convey emotion, talking to bone or something like that, if you've got like just a face of an animatronic face of a dragon, where everything's sort of like moving, yeah, the muscles Mechanically, it's sort of like you've really got like, especially back in the nineties. You've only got, you only have certain sort of movements that can take and it wouldn't be able to portray the emotions that are needed for like, especially something as like this movie, where it has has its like sadness and its anger and all that, all the different kinds of emotions that this movie brings out or it's trying to bring out in you.
Speaker 1:yeah, it'd be hard to do that. Yeah, and I I actually think that the emotionality of this movie is its central core and that's why it's stuck with with us and so many of our threads and and and Instagram community members as kids, because we remember how the movie felt. We don't remember when we went in there and we looked at all the technical aspects and how great the story was, but we remember how the movie felt when we were actually watching it. And the reason I felt so connected to this movie was because of the relationship between Bowen and Draco, which I don't think would have worked if that character of Draco was animatronic. And yeah, we've got Ace here chewing on his foot, setting us both off, but what a happy boy he is.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I actually think that Jurassic Park CGI, as you said, is better as well and it holds up better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, better for its purpose, Whereas if they were trying to do welcome back, I don't know if you've seen that oh, we're back, we're back, oh, we're back, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're back.
Speaker 1:That's the 2d animated one. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's a deep cut I have it somewhere in there.
Speaker 2:Um, anyway, if they were to do something similar to that, they wouldn't be able to use animatronics for that. Yes, yes, I agree, because they turn the deuce pierce and dinosaurs. They'd be initially be able to do it when they originally get captured or when they revert back, but when they get turned into happy fun going dinosaurs, they wouldn't be able to do that with animatronics, exactly right.
Speaker 1:I think you know the CGI character animation in a leading role and it also pushed the capabilities of voice acting and also Planet of the Apes, where Andy Serkis is the king of motion capture, or even Lord of the Rings or anything like that. If you know, rob Cohen and his team didn't push the envelope in this movie to really see if they could get that emotional sort of character out. So you know, I have heard and listened to a lot of people talking about this movie saying that the CGI and the visual effects are absolutely shite. But I think you know, at the time it had its place. I think it definitely. You know it's hard to be the first of anything.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And I think this one did a pretty good job of it. All. Right, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, that ends our first part of our Dragonheart series. Now we're going to be doing part two and that will air for you guys in a couple of days, or, if you're listening to this a little bit later, then you'll probably see it in the list after this one. In that episode, we're going to be looking at our popcorn perspectives, where Brash and I look at the characters of Bowen and also Aynan in depth. We're also then going to be looking at our real deal analysis score and we're going to be also giving our most valuable takeaways from the movie as well. So a bit of a deep analysis coming for you in part two.
Speaker 1:We want to thank you guys for tuning into part one and remember, guys, it is really helpful for podcasters. If you share this episode with a friend, that's the best thing that you can do. For podcasters like us, word of mouth does wonders. And if you are interested in the show notes below, you'll definitely see our threads, our Instagram and our Reddit communities, and we will also be answering our emails as well. So if you have a longer form question, definitely email us, which our address is fandomportals at gmailcom. All right, thank you guys, and we'll see you in part two. Bye, thank you.
