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The Fandom Portals Podcast
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The Fandom Portals Podcast
Fantastic Four (2005) Part Two - What Ben Grimm's "The Thing" and Marvel's First Family Teaches Us About Accepting Change
Episode Summary:
The Fantastic Four (2005) film shows how gaining superpowers forces its characters to confront deep personal struggles with identity, acceptance, and responsibility. Cosmic radiation transformed four astronauts physically, but their greatest challenge wasn't Doctor Doom – it was accepting who they'd become.
Topics:
When we dive into the 2005 Fantastic Four film in our Marvel Month celebration, we're really exploring how these four characters navigate profound identity shifts after gaining their powers. The movie may be over fifteen years old, but its core message about self-acceptance resonates deeply with anyone who's experienced unwanted change.
Michael Chiklis's portrayal of Ben Grimm/The Thing serves as the emotional anchor, with his tragic struggle to accept his rocky exterior reflecting our universal fear of rejection. His character arc – from desperately seeking a cure to embracing his new form – mirrors our own journeys through acceptance.
Meanwhile, Ioan Gruffudd's Reed Richards wrestles with his scientific ambition versus his responsibility to others, Chris Evans brings charismatic energy as Johnny Storm (years before becoming Captain America), and Jessica Alba navigates Sue Storm's role as the team's emotional center despite the script's limitations.
Beyond dissecting performances, we explore how each character's power symbolizes their internal struggles: Reed stretching himself too thin, Sue feeling invisible, Johnny's fiery impulsiveness, and Ben's hardened exterior. These aren't just cool abilities – they're metaphors for human experience.
Key Takeaways:
• Ioan Gruffudd brings Reed Richards' intellectual gravitas to life despite being constantly torn between scientific pursuit and personal relationships
• Chris Evans's Johnny Storm captures the character's rebellious energy, improvisational wit, and thrill-seeking attitude as the Human Torch
• Jessica Alba portrays Sue Storm as the emotional anchor of the team despite the script's over-reliance on objectification
• Michael Chiklis delivers a standout performance as Ben Grimm/The Thing, bringing genuine pathos to his traumatic physical transformation
• The movie successfully establishes the family dynamic and interpersonal relationships that define the Fantastic Four
• Ben Grimm's journey toward self-acceptance provides the emotional core of the film
Apple Podcast Tags:
Fantastic Four 2005, Jessica Alba, Chris Evans, Ioan Gruffudd, Michael Chiklis, Marvel movies, superhero films, comic book adaptations, Sue Storm, Johnny Storm, The Thing, Mr Fantastic, Doctor Doom, Marvel Month, Fandom Portals Podcast
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Hello and welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast. This is a podcast that explores how fandoms can help you learn and grow. We are looking at the Fantastic Four movie from 2005. It was fantastic. Um, I'm here joined by my co-host, brash. How you going today, brash?
Speaker 2:oh, not too bad. I was going to try and come up with more catchphrases for fantasy four, but I realized it's flame one and it's covering time of the only two real catchphrases that have, because I don't believe that reed richards no, they are.
Speaker 1:They're very serious. Um, unless you know, a catchphrase could be sue storm, telling reed to pull his head out of his work.
Speaker 2:And Reed could be saying one more minute. Darling, I don't know.
Speaker 1:But yes, we are looking at the 2005 Fantastic Four movie that was directed by Tim Story, and in this movie a group of astronauts gain superpowers after a cosmic radiation exposure and they must use those powers to oppose the plans of their enemy, dr Victor Von Doom. This is the second part of our fantastic for 2005 podcast, so make sure you go and check out part one if you haven't already. And this is also part of our marvel month. All month long we're going to be looking at marvel material and we also have a giveaway going on as well. So during the month of marvel, brash and I have teamed up to try and gain 15 points from our trivia segment, which usually happens in in our part ones. And if you want to win a family pass to the movies, that's right, we'll send you to the movies on us. Then all you have to do is go and join our mailing list, which you can find at wwwbandandportalspodcastcom. If you go to that website, you can find where you will sign up to our mailing list and if you win, on the 30th of April we'll email you a family pass for you to enjoy a movie on us, because we love the theatre, we love movies and we like going to the movies, so we wanted to extend that to you guys as well, didn't we, brash? Oh yeah, please enjoy it on us. That's how we do it, oh yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So in this podcast, guys, in this part two, we're going to be looking at how they performed their chemistry and what we hope for Fantastic Four first steps as well, and we're going to dive into our popcorn perspectives right now. Alright, in this segment, we dive into standout characters from the movie. Each host picks their favourite character and takes a close look at why they thought the character should be given your attention. All right, brash, the way this is going to work is we're going to pick a character, we're going to talk about them and how they were portrayed through the 2005 movie, what our hopes are for the Fantastic Four first steps, and then we're going to rate their performance and their representation out of five. Make sense, lovely, all right. The first character that we're going to be doing is we're going to be doing the man himself, mr Fantastic Reed Richards, played by Johan Griffith. What did you think of his performance, brash?
Speaker 2:Almost perfect, I would have to say. I thought he played the nerdy work-driven Reed Richards to a T, like he was. When it first came out and I saw him on screen I was like, hey, it's Reed Richards, that's Mr Fantastic right there, miles Teller. I love Miles Teller. But when he came in I was like, hey, who's that guy? Oh, oh, he was A bigger than Ben Green, yeah, and it was a nice casting. But 2005 casting was on point, I reckon, and Reed Richards, for me, was absolutely brilliant and he pulled off the silver fox grey hairline.
Speaker 1:I think it was interesting to know that Yohan Griffith is a Welsh actor and he had to try and put on the American accent through the movie. I think he did a pretty good job. There are some points where you can tell yeah, he did struggle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because he kept getting new lines constantly. He had to keep reloading new lines, trying to read those new lines in an American accent constantly. Yeah, it messed him up a little bit.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think that Johan tried to aim for that intellectual gravitas that Reed Richards has, which I think he did kind of well. But some people have said that his performance was a little bit too subdued, because you know, reed can often be seen at least in the comic books as being very cold and calculating and distant to his other Fantastic Four family members, and I don't think he was like that in this movie. He was actually pretty warm towards the other members of the Fantastic Four, or at least he presented that leadership kind of quality very, very well. He always seemed like he was reluctantly doing his work, which is actually the true form of the comic book's version of Reed Richards.
Speaker 1:He's actually always in that constant struggle. He's in a moral struggle all the time, with his intellectual ruthlessness of being absolutely driven and focused to try and make the world a better place, because he's the only one intellectually that can do it, and also his love for his family that needs his time, that, uh, that needs his care, that relationship with sue that needs nurturing as well. So he's always being pulled in so many different directions, which is actually why he got his powers of stretching um. So with that in mind, I think that, uh, griffith actually played this pretty well, and I think that the only thing that we didn't really see and we kind of see it a little bit more in the rise of the silver surfer movie is where he's actually being pulled in two directions in terms of his relationship with sue and his scientific pursuits, because in this one, yes, he wants to cure ben so much that's like drawing all of his attention, but in this movie he doesn't really have a relationship with sue storm anymore.
Speaker 2:because, yeah, he's trying to recreate. So in trying to help ben he's working for to help ben, but then in the same vein he's also seeing that he's also slowly winning back sue. So he's sort of, yeah, doing that bit of Tywin War and this is one of the things I thought was a bit forced in the movie about that sort of dynamic for Reed was that in then going and taking that one afternoon off with Sue, victor was able to convince Ben.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he doesn't like you anymore, oh yeah, and that's that's why I, like it was wasn't able to convince Ben to. Yeah, he doesn't like you anymore. Oh, yeah, and that's why I was a bit forced on Reed, whereas, as you said, in the second movie it's a lot more natural because there's a big disaster coming.
Speaker 1:But it's also his wedding and he's like no, I'm going to get married Under the table, which is exactly Reed Richards through the comic book run, he's always doing the thing that needs to be done at the expense of his family, and that also, yeah, sort of brings which I don't think, uh, griffith sort of portrayed as well as he could have, was the, that existential loneliness that that kind of causes for reed, like in the. In the comic books, especially the hickman run between 2009, 2015, reed riches is portrayed as somebody who is going through this internal struggle, not only having all of these cosmic burdens on his hands and trying to maintain a family dynamic where he needs closeness, but also the fact that he is the only one that is fighting these battles. He's there with his family, but it's almost like he's fighting them alone because there's nobody else that's really on his level that he can use as an ally to help him in the manner that needs being helped. He does portray the, the brain, in this. He's definitely the scientific minded and he's he's also in terms of his friendship with ben.
Speaker 1:I don't think that is as developed as it could have been because, as you said before, you know it, it turns on a switch so quickly. They do have a history that we see about through their early interactions in the 2005 movie, but I don't think it's as in-depth as the Ben Grimm, reed Richards in the comic books, because obviously they have more time to develop that too. So let's give this guy a rating. Let's give him a rating out of five for Ewan Griffith and his portrayal of Reed Richards in the 2005 Fantastic Four movie. What are you giving it out of five? Brash, I was going to say three, oh, three and a half. I think that that is very complimentary to his portrayal and also its comic book accurateness with the story and the time that we were given in this almost two-hour movie.
Speaker 2:It was a pretty good read yeah, because it's hard to do anything within it was just the constraint of like two hours and especially building four main characters, main good characters and also a bad guy character and especially a significant one like Doctor Doom. Trying to build those five characters into our movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think you know they they did do an okay job at developing these characters, but it was to the detriment of any kind of plot. All right, let's move on to our next character, who is going to be Johnny Storm the Human Torch, played by Chris Evans. I'll go first for this one.
Speaker 1:When Chris Evans came on the screen as Johnny Storm the Human Torch, I absolutely loved him as a teenager. He was a guy I wanted to be. He played the hotshot shot persona and he was immediately likable. He was a showboat. He showed this youthful arrogance and thrill-seeking attitude. He embodied the flame that he would eventually then go and take on as well.
Speaker 1:And, funnily enough, chris evans actually improvised a lot of his lines, because tim's story thought that, uh, chris evans had the acting chops to do it for one and for two. He never felt like Johnny's lines should be something that was planned, because he was always the one that kind of played things by the seat of his pants anyway. So Chris Evans, even at that early time in his career, was able to pull off this role very, very well. I think that in terms of his match with the comic books, chris Evans played that wit and that rebellious kind of attitude and that thirst for the thrill. Really well, because he in the comic books is also one of the four and the only one of the four who doesn't really care that he has changed. It's almost like he loves the fact that these new powers give him this extra bit of attention and this new ability that he can use, and it's a really, really good portrayal of Johnny Storm. He lights up the screen, he sells the fun. I really liked Chris Evans as Johnny Storm. What are your thoughts, brash?
Speaker 2:I really liked him in the 2005 movie. I have to say, though he was a little bit annoying, but not to say though he was a little bit annoying, but not to say that that's a bad thing. I feel the fact that he annoyed me was probably on point for Johnny Storm. He annoyed me like he annoyed Ben Grimm. I can see that those two's chemistry as well.
Speaker 1:Ben Grimm, michael Chiklis and Chris Evans as the Human Torch that pranks the sort of dynamic as they were waiting inside to be cured. That's like the best montage that they could have done in this Fantastic Four. It built relationship and character development so quickly and it made us like both of them really well. It's also very comic accurate. I shared a post on our threads today that shows Ben Grimm throwing this massive water bomb onto Johnny Storm and it's just like it gives that energy.
Speaker 2:And that's what I kind of wish they sort of did as well. Like, to me it just seemed like Johnny I think the thing that I can know most about Johnny Storm in the Desperate Five movie, and I think it's because of the fact that they didn't have enough time to foster the relationships. It just really felt like like at the start it was a bit it was playful, but then towards the like sort of middle of the movie, ish, it just started to feel mean. His attacks on the thing wasn't like that. He's like oh, and what do you call this thing? He's like oh, that's the guy who did the thing.
Speaker 1:Everyone needs a mask he's a go on for a lot man come on, yeah, dude, and like and like.
Speaker 2:So I think for me he came off like he's got that at the very start. He's really good, the cockiness and everything that is really good. The dead evils like him diving, like him saying that the nurse is gonna be his future wife, jumping out of the helicopter, and he lied so on, point, so great. Him kissing the girl in the car, uh, while he's on the motorbike, real tom cruise stop gun sort of style. Like, um, oh yeah, I loved all that and then. But then when they got the powers in that he was still okay.
Speaker 2:But then as he kept griping on and on and on and on with ben grim's character, or ben grim the character, the thing it just sort of was like I thought got old and just started feeling just mean for mean sake, like the, like the whipped cream, that was funny. Like that little like, like that sort of playfulness was funny where you had to like we're trying to tickle with the feathers and realize he was a rock and that that wasn't gonna work. So you end up using the other side of it to tickle his nose, like the harder stick part of it, um, to get him to do the. Uh, slap his face with the whipped cream. That was great, but I but I wish it was a bit more back and forward, like the post you put on where Ben dropped the giant water balloon on Johnny Storm. I wish Ben he's not even a person, he's a thing. I get that in the comics, but in the movie it just seems so me.
Speaker 1:I think that that's part of the growth that we don't see in this movie from Johnny Storm as well, because he stays the same way the whole movie. He's always that joker, whereas in the comic books you can always sort of see that he's wrestling with this, wanting to grow and wanting to be a protector and wanting to be a hero, which we do see in this movie, but it doesn't really translate to responsibility very much.
Speaker 2:So until the Silver surfer movie. Yeah, the second one. The second one is silver surfer is where he actually, I actually like johnny storm more because that's when he like, yes, when he becomes the screw-up, when he becomes the um problem and he's like, oh, I need to um, it's a humbling moment for him which he doesn't get in this movie because he has the coolest power.
Speaker 1:His life doesn't change very much and everybody loves him. He doesn't look very different at all and you know what? He's got this energy about him and he's got that sort of arrogant persona. But in the comic books it shows that that's actually hiding a deeper struggle with self-image insecurity that he has. Like he needs external validation because he's so unsure of himself and his position in the team On multiple accounts. He is unable to find a place within the family of the Fantastic Four because they're all so connected and they all know their purpose and their place and he wants to be the heroes but he's always seen as this kid, this kid that can't get anything right, or this kid that is a hothead, or this thrill seeker that just goes out and does things for fun.
Speaker 1:And that's the Johnny Storm we got in this movie which I think is good comic book accuracy for the start of his journey as the Human Torch, because that's literally what it was From issue one to three of the original Fantastic Four. Johnny Storm was out for the thrill the whole time. The original Fantastic Four Johnny Storm was out for the thrill the whole time. He was there just doing rebellious teenage stuff. And then it wasn't until the later runs. It took until 2003,. And we're talking the Fantastic Four came out in 1961. In 2003, he started to then develop into something a little bit more. So the fact that we got it in the second movie is pretty good, but in this movie I do agree. I think that he was very immature the whole way through, and I think he did that because obviously he was the one that appealed to the teenage boy audience the most.
Speaker 2:But yeah, but yeah, so, but on a whole as Johnny Storm.
Speaker 1:What do you rate it? Do you think I'll give you mine first? I reckon it's a 4.5 out of 5. Actually, actually I'll give it a 4 out of 5 because, yeah, there is that little element that he doesn't really grow. He has no arc through this whole thing. But in the first movie, as you said, we're developing 5 characters. I think it was necessary to kind of portray him as that almost comic relief, you might say, in this movie.
Speaker 2:So 4 out of 5 for me yeah, I was going to give him a 3 out of 5, but I'm going to push it up to a 4 as well, noting that he was playing the Emotario character as well, the reason why he doesn't get that extra, like if he. If they had had that back and forth between him and Ben, I probably would have given it a 5 out of 5, but he just came off as like. I know he's immature and he's probably like his only insecurity is that's why he's picking on Ben, because Ben's an easy target to try and elevate himself by putting someone else down. But to me he was just so mean, so mean. But so there, chris Evans, amazing Johnny Storm. I just wish they had of not had him pick on Ben either so much or that made a bit more fun loving than straight up. Just me.
Speaker 1:All right, let's move on to Jessica Alba playing Sue Storm or the Invisible Woman in Fantastic Four 2005. All right. So I think in terms of the comic book representation of Sue Storm, this is the worst represented character. I do think that Jessica Alba portrayed Sue Storm in the movie as well as she could have. I think that Sue Storm should be the emotional compass and the moral strength of Marvel's first family. I think that she was basically heavily leaned on for objectification and the superficial look of her. Basically she was the drawcard for the target audience, you might say, and to the point where it is widely said that the titular scene where she turns herself invisible on the bridge, only for the male characters after her to just get through normally.
Speaker 1:So the pointless striptease you might say was in there just to you know objectify her even further. She had some uh things to say about that and that scene wasn't written in the movie until after she accepted the role. So with that, with sue storm's character being relegated to that kind of thing, was a big disappointment for me because, as as I said earlier, she is my favorite member of the Fantastic Four because she is this emotional rock for the team and it's epitomized most in Fantastic Four 280 to 284 when she actually becomes a dark persona malice because the boys in a Fantastic Four go without her for a time and it shows just how much emotional strength they take from her. She's able to reclaim herself in the end and then it shows that after that her strengths don't really lie in brute force or anything like that. It comes in her self-knowledge and her compassion and her control and that is what she then offers to the other members of the Fantastic Four. And she is also probably the most powerful member of the Fantastic Four. She has the shields that can not only shield everybody but she can create them within a person to stop oxygen or blood from leaving or going into the heart. She is an extremely powerful person in this Fantastic Four team and I think that Jessica Alba did the best that she could with the writing that she has done, but I think in terms of her comic book comparison this is an utterly woeful representation for me.
Speaker 1:I also think that it's always been explained that Sue got her powers of invisibility because Reed never sees her and I don't think that that's why she got her powers of invisibility in force field.
Speaker 1:I think that she got her powers of force field because she is the emotional protector of the entire team and her children when they do come along.
Speaker 1:And she has an empower of invisibility because a lot of the time she neglects her own needs for the needs of the team and in that way she, her needs, are invisible. So through that justification is how I like to see sue storm in the Fantastic Four and through this she was really only given like power and success through the man's kind of world of her being this scientific figure or the second in charge to Victor, but really because he then went and proposed to her. It was almost like she only got that promotion because Victor despite Reed, which means her entire character development was centered on the fact that Victor and Reed were feuding, which I didn't really enjoy with that. So I think Albert did a good job with what she was given and she was obviously a draw for the big teenage audience and she did what she needed to do in terms of the objectification and all that kind of stuff. But I just don't think that it kind of worked for me as a comic book adaptation. What about you?
Speaker 2:I 100% agree. But yeah, and I feel, if it wasn't so, this comes back to them forcing Victor to be the main bad guy in the first movie. They had to have some sort of anchor point for him to be upset with the team, but more so Reed. Unfortunately, Sue became that thing because her portrayal of Sue Storm I thought was extremely good. She is the one who's when Johnny's playing up goals. Johnny, when Ben's feeling down about himself, says you're alright, man, you're good, it's all good, weals Johnny. When Ben's feeling down about himself, he says you're all right, man, you're good, it's all good, we'll figure it out. Reed's got this, just trust him. Blah, blah. And then when Reed's working too hard or getting too focused on his work or getting too distracted by his work, able to pull him out and say hey, you need to refocus, just take a break, refocus.
Speaker 1:Rash. These are really good points. Man, these are good points.
Speaker 2:So I feel like Sue Storm. The character and the way Alba plays her is pretty spot on to Sue. The only thing is that it's overshadowed by the over-sexualization and the fact that she becomes the piece of meat that Victor and Reed fight over Yep, the over sexualization and the fact that she becomes the piece of meat that victor and reed fight over yep and um like and yes, that pointless, pointless strip scene which they did again in the second movie as well, like really early on they did it again, I know yeah, and she's like why does it always happen to me?
Speaker 2:and it's like because, jessica, you are extremely beautiful. But do that? That is why and that gets the teenage boys in. Yeah, but I I feel like, take away those stupid sexualization moments, make victor's arc fanned over two movies or three movies, instead of just trying to somehow make him hate them so much really quickly because of a girl, and that's the only way you can actually do it in that short span of time. Take away that part and you have a pretty spot on perfect glue that holds the Fantastic Four together. In Sue Storm, jessica Alba.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one thing I would have liked to see as well was a lot of the time in the comics Sue kind of leads the team because Reed's wrapped up in saving the world science like he does. So she takes a leadership role quite often, and I think that that's what they're going to do in the new Fantastic Four first steps. Maybe they're going to actually look at Sue as being more of a leadership figure. That being the case, I think that's the case because in the trailer you can see that, um, that Sue kind of leads these two individuals through the Baxter building as if she's the ceo of the future foundation company, which which reed sort of establishes, and he's more of the, the tv personality slash science guy basically that develops all the technology on the side, like she's the face of the company, and that that sort of strategic leadership, I think, of the team was kind of missing as well, for me as well. Like on an equal footing at least everybody else and again um.
Speaker 2:I believe it. She shows that more in the second movie as the one who's sort of like the um, like uh, starts calling some of the shots, yeah, and also negotiating with the surfer as well, like she's able to do that exactly, yeah, and she's.
Speaker 2:She's sort of more taking point and like, even when, um, they're trying to save that Ferris wheel, in the end Reed comes up with the idea to use Johnny's powers to weld it back together. But it's Sue, like when they're all starting to fall apart and Sue's like trying to hold this Ferris wheel out, she's the one that's like hey, guys, get together, what are you doing? Like I'm struggling here because I'm doing all the work. And then that's when I sort of like, because we're all sort of bickering and falling apart, and Sue's like like, guys, come on, guys, we need to do something. And everyone's sort of like all right, yeah, let's get into gear.
Speaker 1:And then that's when Reed's like yeah, they start to click the panic sets. But she's the one, yeah, she's the one that sort of snaps them into work mode. You might say yeah.
Speaker 2:So again, I reckon Jessica Allaway did a really good job. It was just unfortunate that they forced her to be also the eye candy and the piece of meat that the guys fight over yeah, alright.
Speaker 1:What do you rate her performance?
Speaker 2:I rate her performance. If it was purely just of what I see of Sue Storm and just blocking out all the sexualization, I reckon she'd be a 4, but because of all the sexualization that she was forced to do in it it sort of drags her down to like a 3.5 yeah, I'll probably give her a 4 because I think that the fact that she was able to do what she was able to do, but also knowing that they were using her character for that, is just a testament for Descalba as an actress.
Speaker 1:She was able to go through and actually lean into the aspects of the character that were positive in terms of Sue Storm and not let the negative that was happening throughout the movie detract from her performance in other aspects. So you really convinced me through this that there were aspects of it that I kind of looked at and didn't really appreciate, because I do with that thing that a lot of marvel fans do when they've read a lot of the comic books which I have I'm a big fan of the fantastic four comics where you're kind of looking at it going that's not what I know and that's not what I love, and it's like the expectation versus reality of it kind of drew me out of it. But when you're putting those points together and saying you know she actually does do these things within the movie is just on a shorter scale, because obviously that's what they have to do in a movie. You really, yeah, pointed them out to me.
Speaker 2:Well, brash, I'm going to change my thing about the four then, because I'm going to ignore all this sexualization and I'm just going to go, based off her performance, without those parts.
Speaker 1:Beauty. Alright. So with that, we're going to move on to Michael Chiklis, who plays Ben Grimm or the Thing in the 2005 Fantastic Four movie. First things first, we can't talk about Michael Chitlis without talking about his absolute commitment to this role through his tragic transformation of the thing, his emotional isolation, but also the actor's isolation in terms of he was the only one wearing prosthetics and the prosthetics took three or six hours to apply. It was extremely hot when they were shooting in various locations.
Speaker 2:However, they did have to do a Canada shootcouver and he said he was very comfortable there yeah, everyone else was cold and he was warm and that was that fight like the end fight scene.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was the end fight scene and especially because a lot of them were like wet with all the water and things like that. But yeah, you know, he got his payoff in the end. But uh, michael chiklis a massive fan of the comic books he is he's definitely there to preserve the authenticness of Ben Grimm and the Thing. I think the main things that the Thing needs is he needs to be the kind-hearted caramel center of the team. He's like the big puppy dog that everyone sort of gathers around. He has the potential to explode, obviously in moments of anger when his people are being hurt, gathers around. He has the potential to explode, obviously in moments of anger when his people are being hurt and pushed around. But I feel like he also needs to be that gooey center that really unites and talks to people through their problems and is that supportive best friend or that emotional rock you might say to Reed Richards which I feel like he is, especially through their early breakup with Sue Storm. Michael Chiklis plays him as somebody who's still friends with Sue, understands why she left him, because that's obviously his best friend, reed's biggest fault, which he does not deny, and then you know, I think he is a character that goes through that emotional turmoil, that bitterness and that loneliness get to him, which is why he succumbs to Doom's offer to change him sooner, and it's why he also gets so frustrated with Reed and Sue after they take that one afternoon off. I think Checklist played that really really well as well. He has some critical receptions for this that I've looked up. Roger Ebert wrote that Checklist brought a sense of humanity to a man trapped in a rock suit and he elicits genuine sympathy in a film otherwise devoid of much character depth. Empire magazine also commented him or commended him rather, for playing the thing really well. They remarked that he anchors the film's emotionality, even while buried in latex layers. So he's his performance for me was was really good.
Speaker 1:Two things I wish they did in terms of his character development, which I don't know how they could have done, but it's comic book accurate and which is what I want to see in Fantastic Four First Steps is obviously his cultural identity is that he's a Jewish superhero, so I would have liked to see a little bit of that In First Steps. They've got Ebon Mas Bakarak, who is a Jewish actor, to play him. I'm not sure if they'll dive into that, but maybe there'll. And then also, the thing is a very or.
Speaker 1:Ben Grimm is a very prominent member of the Yancey Street gang in New York. He grew up with nothing. Basically in the comic books he was a street kid and he still has those ties to the community of New York no-transcript, so that, uh, chickless and the role of the thing ben grim would actually start to feel a little bit of acceptance for his new form. But the biggest thing that they had to get right for the thing is that he had to be the one that was playing the person who was the most emotionally devastated from this transformation, which I think he did very well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, because I thought I got shit on the whole entire movie. Oh yeah, I have to say Michael's probably the out of all of them. As much as I do love Jessica Alba's suit in the Underlayers, michael was probably the best performer in this whole entire movie and the one who probably took the most care in it.
Speaker 1:Like even adding scenes like on the bridge, when his ex-fiancee comes and leaves the ring and he goes to pick it up. It was his idea to actually struggle with picking it up, which was literally tear-jerking when you watch that.
Speaker 2:That is so hard.
Speaker 1:In front of everybody.
Speaker 2:And yeah, and like you just imagine the rest of the crowd just looking and just watching him try to pick up this ring and no one's like helping him, like it's just like.
Speaker 2:But I do like eventually, like when the police go to arrest him and everyone's like, and the fire pit is like hey guys, he's a hero, and everyone starts clapping at you for him. I didn't like that and when I first watched it I was like I'm like, ah, it's going to start turning around for him and people are going to because initially because that was their first sort of showing, um, in that, in that seat, that everyone cheering for me, for me. When I first saw it, I was like, oh cool, this is when people are going to start turning around and there's still, there's still going to be, some fear towards him. But this is where it's going to start turning around and it's going to be. Everyone's going to start accepting him gradually more now and then that's pretty much straight away forgotten. But everyone cheered him on the bridge and everyone goes back to hating him again straight after that. It's it's like ah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that was important to do, though, because obviously Ben's arc through this whole thing was finding that self-acceptance, and I really liked, at the end, when he obviously succumbed to Doom's proposal to turn him early, because he was not comfortable with who he was in himself in his new form. Through this change and traumatic event that he'd gone through. He wasn't comfortable with who he was in himself in his new form. Through this change and traumatic event that he'd gone through, he wasn't comfortable with who he was because he had this strong attachment to who he was previously and he couldn't fathom, you know, being this new version of ben grim.
Speaker 1:But in the end, he decided to change himself back to the thing in order to help his friends, which was a really good character development moment where you got to actually see, hey, this is the thing, and the same way with the comics that you know is self-sacrificing, gives for his family and the Fantastic Four and actually, you know, puts other people first, which is what he kind of does, sometimes to the detriment of himself, but he is always the one that is being turned to for those moments of strength, whether it be physical or emotional. So I kind of like that his arc went in that way. And then by the end of the movie, when Reed isn't at the party on the boat and he's talking to Ben and he says you know, I could probably do this, that and the other to fix you up, and Ben actually says you know what? All good, I'm good as is. That's like the best culminating part for his arc.
Speaker 2:for me, because of that way they went. I think everyone cheering for him on the bridge sort of then makes that whole net, whole end arc of him self-sacrificing and turning on them then being like, no, I need to help my friends and you know I can do. That is how I was, um, and I'll do that for them. It sort of sort of takes a step, makes him, makes them take a step backwards, because all these people he's been on camera, he was being filmed, everyone's cheering for him. I kind of wish that they'd cheer for the others, but still looked at him with disdain because, realistically, he's the one that started that crash by standing in front of the truck to save that guy.
Speaker 1:That's just quietly.
Speaker 2:He did. He did the right thing by saving the guy. But in the meantime you saw a taxi fly over into a bunch of gas tanks and explode. The two inside the car is dead straight up. So many people died. So many people died in that crash and the explosions saving that one guy who wanted to kill himself. I mean honestly, I mean you know yeah, that's the bridge scene.
Speaker 1:That is like it's a great production scene because the amount of cgr the amount of work and all that. All the work was really great but unfortunately in the story the way that it was is just like it just made no sense. It was kind of like they needed to. They needed to let the fantastic four show their powers for the first time and that was the best they could come up with. That was, yeah, like they could have made doom come and zap some stuff or, you know, just a regular old car crash.
Speaker 2:That. Or even like, introduce a different bad guy to right there, to for them to be like, oh wait, we got powers now we can help in this situation. And then show that and still like everyone's like everyone. Be like oh man, that's so cool, you can stretch, oh man, that everyone's like everyone. Be like oh man, that's so cool, you can stretch, oh man, that's so cool. He turns into fire and flies around and shoots firewalls and then, oh cool, she can go invisible and make force fields and stuff. Oh, it's a rock. And they could still do that and that could still make that sort of separation between them and alienating Ben, because everyone's all fascinated with them, the other three and still has, because ben, which can help that sort of self-loathing grow, yeah, to the point where victor's proposal is actually more attractive than then.
Speaker 2:Hey, they went away for the night or for an afternoon, for a couple hours. They've forgotten about you and, realistically, the whole like the thing was ready and um reed was like it's ready, we just somehow need more power, that's. All they needed was more power to run it, and it would have worked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the science was thin in this movie too, which I didn't like. For a fantastic four movie, I needed some techno babble like star trek to keep me yeah, keep it like.
Speaker 2:But like the thing, the whole thing was ready, but he just he wanted to make sure because I want to make sure that was and that that was another thing about reed him being so meticulous and it it driving him else nuts because he's being so meticulous. He just needed more power and it would have worked. But he was struggling that moment to try and find a source of power like that that could do it, because victor had to throw a fair chunk of his energy in there and he drew a lot of it out as well.
Speaker 2:But, um well, he gained a lot of it as well from the discharge. Yeah, he, in that afternoon he came back. He refreshed me like all right, guys, we need a lot of energy. Oh, we know, we have a supernova who could probably create a lot of energy. Why don't we use Johnny to power it up? Fair enough, power solved. But they're like, but he's. But there he comes sneaky. Julian mcmahon hey, they've gone out for the evening. They don't love you anymore. They think you're ugly and tedious too.
Speaker 1:Ha ha, they're never gonna fix you, even though the machine's pretty much done yeah, he knew he was getting quick, but yeah, I think that's another time where the, the writing lets down the, the character development. But in terms of the actor, in terms of the actor and the character, I think, yeah, I would rate him. I'd probably rate this guy a five. I think five out of five for me for Michael Chiklis and the thing, just because his commitment to the authenticity and also actually I'll probably give it a 4.5 because I don't think he was I'll give it a 4.5.
Speaker 1:It wasn't as sensitive, as I'd like the thing to be in terms of like how he was emotionally there for the rest of the Fantastic Four, I'd say. But you know he had just gone through a very traumatic event and at the moment he was very self-focused.
Speaker 2:I guess you could say yeah, well, within the span of like not very long, he got turned into a rock monster monster. His wife, who they like when they're talking about things like you know, like we're gonna be together forever, no matter what, and then she's like, nah, straight up, straight up, he, he went through enough that would break any normal person and, um, his resilience, I think is detrimental in that and what. What actually I liked so much about like him and because as much as johnny annoyed me about how mean he was to him, detrimental in that and what actually I liked so much about him, because as much as Johnny annoyed me about how mean he was to him his resilience in just brushing him off and everything like that and just crushing his car and throwing it around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it was a good ball I liked that To me.
Speaker 2:You need to do more kind of that stuff where Johnny does stuff to either tease him or do stuff like that, so then he gets him back by just throwing his car. Also I agree 4.5.
Speaker 1:Very good, all right, so let's get into our most valuable takeaways. This is the mvt section, the most valuable takeaway, the heart and soul of this podcast, where we break down the one thing that hits hardest, stuck longest or taught us something new from what we just watched. It's our moment to spotlight the takeaway that made us think, feel or see things differently, whether it's a killer, a moral punch or a next level piece of movie craft. This is what we learned from Fantastic Four 2005. Do you want to go first, or me?
Speaker 2:You can go first because mine might tee off, okay.
Speaker 1:So my one is about Ben Grimm and it is about the inner struggle for acceptance. So my most valuable takeaway from this is sort of in answer to the question what do you do when something irreversible happens to you or a change happens to you and it changes how you see yourself or how the world sees you? And it's very, very hard and it happens to everybody. It's something that happens throughout everybody's life. And I think that for Ben it wasn't just about the fact that he changed and his looks changed, but his identity changed, like his self-worth changed. It was tied to his humanity and the way that he was normal and the way that he interacted with his friends and his relationships and his significant partners. And he then had to sort of shift and he had to force himself to relearn how he saw himself. But then at the same time he was going through the fact that other people kind of saw him in a different light as well. So it kind of equates that worth with appearance or function, like what he's able to do, and I think that that's a pitfall that sometimes people fall into where they look at external validation and there's also this initial desperation to undo that change like, especially when traumatic events happen, it's like people want to undo the bad thing that happened to them, whereas when we hate who we've become, then you become vulnerable to like exploitation and you've got to kind of learn that no external change will resolve the internal rejection that you feel for yourself. So the thing about the thing, the thing about the thing is when he actually chooses to be the thing again. That's when he realizes, you know, he stops seeing his condition as a curse, he accepts his identity as more than just his form and you know, he's showing up with what he has at that time and he has this self-determination that he can enact change and be himself. And he gains showing up with what he has at that time and he has this self-determination that he can enact change and be himself and he gains this self-respect and this community and this sense of purpose that he's able to move with. And it's also that message that not all change is chosen and not all change is visible, but every change gives us a chance to either resist and remain bitter, or accept and adapt and grow stronger, which is what I think he was able to do by the end of the movie.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like because for the longest time with me I was always somebody who I valued for myself. That's something that I wanted to change. A lot about myself was that I wanted to be like organized and punctual and on time to things, and I wanted to be able to complete complex tasks and be able to do all those things. So I had this self-perception of what I kind of wanted to be and I was constantly trying to fix that about myself all my life. And then when I got a ADHD diagnosis, I kind of had this mentality where I was like well, I now I can't do that because it's who I am Like, that's who I am.
Speaker 1:And you know, it wasn't the fact that I I couldn't do that anymore or I couldn't work towards doing that. It was the fact that my self-perception of it was that now, because this is now labeled, it's actually like a quote mark detriment to me, it's something that I can't do, where, in fact, I kind of just had to learn new ways to do it instead of what the normal ways that people would try to do those things are. So for me I kind of resonated with him, even though my transformation, you might say, wasn't physical. It was kind of like a mental change for me where I kind of had to come to terms with the fact that the identity that I wished for myself and the one that I was working on, I had to shift. The manner in which I was trying to achieve that and it was.
Speaker 1:It was really detrimental for a while because I was like, why isn't this working? Why can't I stick to this? Why can't I do this so in that way? And it's taken heaps of time, it's taken so much time, more than a two-hour movie. But that's kind of what I gained from this is that that change that you go through you know it doesn't always have to be visible and doesn't always have to like, but it has to be chosen. It has to be something that you choose to do and you have to accept and adapt and then grow, which is what Ben Grimm was able to do in this movie, and you know I'm still working on it, but I feel like I've been able to do it in some level too with my thing. So that's my takeaway. Thanks, ben, that's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Thanks, man. I'm pretty much going to have to piggyback off what she said, because mine was similar to yours in that it's no matter what, whoever you are in this world, shit's always going to happen and sometimes you just gotta roll the punches and it's just um. Have that. It's hard, hard to do, but have that acceptance of yourself. Yeah, like how ben has to have eventually come to the acceptance that for him to do what he needs to do, which and what he he thinks is right and how he feels, and that is protect his family, he has to make that sacrifice of becoming the thing and and then he accepts that and becomes really like his true self by accepting that same with like Johnny in the second one, where he's like has to sort of let go of that attention seeking and vanity to become someone that the other team can actually rely on instead of becoming a nuisance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he had to drop that mask, like the mask that he'd been portraying to everybody. That made him feel safe, because he was showboating and because if people don't like that, that's fine, because that's not really who I am. Nobody sees the broken me because they see that showboat and that's fine. But whereas with Ben Grimm his difference was there for everybody to see. There was no masking. That's the thing and you know, when you're going through things like that it can lead you to some dangerous paths because you look for quick fixes and different things work for different people. But you know a lot of people look for quick fixes in situations like that, or external solutions or validation from others. It's like a common human thing.
Speaker 1:But yeah you've got to learn to become sort of self-determined and get that sort of respect and have self-acceptance as opposed to other acceptance.
Speaker 2:Yeah and fantastic for and this is what I think, what you're saying about the 2015, how that one showed that more the body dysmorphia side of things, I think that all of them have gone through, like all the Fantastic Four prime examples, in different ways of acceptance. So Ben's is more physical acceptance, johnny is more of a Internal emotional, internal emotional maturity acceptance and reads more of a. He needs to accept the love and care of people around him and join in on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also the limitations of his own intelligence as well.
Speaker 2:Hubris is his hubris, yeah, instead of being like he may be one of the smartest people on the planet, but that's not going to solve all of his problems. Um, and then sue is, she just needs to accept the fact that she can't be the emotional rock for them in the heart and the soul of them all the time. She needs to take time for herself yes, perfect, um, and and just needs that time to self-reflect and recharge. And, as you were saying too, like I think, and everyone goes through something's in a similar vein, but always different, and it's just about accepting that fact.
Speaker 2:Like I wish I was, I wish my hair wasn't starting to recede, even though I'm trying my best to not let it recede. I wish I was in better shape Not that I'm in terrible shape, but I wish I was just in the shape I was in like four years ago, not that long ago and there's things I can do to fix that, but then there's also other things in my life that are stopping me from focusing on that, and there's things I can do to fix that, but then there's also other things in my life that are stopping me from focusing on that, and there's just so much going on and just at some point you just have to be like all right, I can't, I can't focus on trying to do all these things. I need to focus on one thing at a time and just accept that life is chaotic and that I can only do certain things and that I can't do everything at once.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think also there is that acceptance and that realization that there is a version. This is where everybody is like there is a version of you that you can be proud of and it's not like all the way down the road like you can be proud of who you are right now. And there are things about you that you can be proud of right now, and you might be looking at the things that you're you're lacking in terms of what you don't have, but there are also a lot of things that you might have that you can be really sort of accepting of as well. And I think that's that's the focus shift that that ben went through in this movie.
Speaker 1:Uh, he, he had to be accepting of the fact that, hey, in this particular situation, these changes that occurred to me are actually really helpful because I can go and assist my friends, and that's something that I value. I value being there for my friends and I value being able to help others, and this enables me to do that really, really well. But then also you know, he not so much Johnny, but I feel like that there is like a subtle acceptance that happens between Johnny and Ben at the end, when they sort of meet up and he puts a hand on his shoulder and Ben says you know, you did good kid, and they kind of have that little moment. There's definitely like a back and forth between them. But I think he surrounds himself and in the comics especially, he surrounds himself with people that love him for who he is, and that's that's the part that helps him through is because he can see and look at the parts of himself that he likes as well, which is what I think is the takeaway too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and another thing you have to accept the now and work for the future. If you're not accepting the now and you're too busy trying to focus on too many futures, then you're never going to get there because you're splitting yourself off in too many directions.
Speaker 1:That's Reed Richards' problem as well, literally, because in the comic books he actually forms a council of Reeds, because he can't solve all the world's problems alone. So instead of doing any sort of self-work and you know, actually I- need more of me, yeah he's like I need more of me to do the jobs I can't do, instead of him going.
Speaker 1:Actually, this is just out of my wheelhouse. I can't do that and I need to accept it. And you know, that kind of self-determination is admirable to a point, but also it causes a lot of problems because it leads to the arc which involves the maker in the comic book series, which is just a very volatile version of Reed. That's basically solving everything at all costs, no matter the humanity that's involved, and I think that, like that is a very important aspect of it too, is accepting the now is good. All right, let's rate it. All right, the fandom portal's on board. Guys, it's time to rate and rank. Each host gives the movie a score out of five. Then we take the average and add it to our official letterboxd on board. If you want to follow along, you can find and track our rankings anytime you like at our letterboxd, which is at fandomportals. Alright, brash, what are you giving? Fantastic 4 from 2005.
Speaker 2:I was going to give it like a 3, 3.5, but after like, how much we've talked about it and all the things we've talked about within it, and even when I was talking about sue storm, so I was just talking because I like the character and the more I was talking about and how you're saying that it helped you, um, change your mind on sue. I think I only I changed my own mind on sue a little bit talking about because, because, actually, just talking through it, I was like yeah, no, she, she does a lot of that, does a lot of that thing, and yeah. So I think I'm going to give it a four, nice.
Speaker 1:I like it. You know, initially as well, I gave it a 2.5. Initially I gave it a 2.5. But I think, after talking about it and seeing how, with the time spent that they got in this hour and 40 something minutes with that, and the amount that they kind of develop the characters that they need to, and how they tried to make it as comic accurate as they could, I'm a character guy so I like characters in movies a lot better than I. I will deal with a character driven plot movie. We cannot fight the fact that the plot in this movie is thin. The villain is absolute trash represented in terms of the story. However, he has played well with what has been given there, so I'm probably happy to give this a 3.5. It is going to have with your rating of 4 and mine of 3.5, it's going to have an average of 3.75, which means we have to determine whether it is better or worse than Spider-Man. No Way Home.
Speaker 2:I honestly, again, this is still hard, this is hard.
Speaker 1:I'm going to say under, though I will probably say under as well.
Speaker 2:But by say if it was like the average was 3.75, like Best Wish Board would be like 3.74.
Speaker 1:Yes, only just, only, just below, only just Okay. So we're going to put it on our fandom portals on a board, guys, and it is going to sit underneath Spider-Man no Way Home, which means it is seven overall. It sits directly above Sonic the Hedgehog, so it's in our top 10. Leading the fandom portals on board is still the Crow, with an average of 4.25. So we'll see how we go. Let's go into our sign-offs.
Speaker 1:Alright, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, this is the end of our first episode in our Marvel month. We have just looked at Fantastic Four from the 2005 era. If you wanted to join our community, you can do so by looking at our threads and our Instagram and also our Reddit. Those links are in the show notes below and, as you may have heard, we are doing a giveaway. If Brash and I are able to earn 15 points by learning so much about all the Marvel movies that we're doing, then you will have a chance to win a pass to take yourself and your family to the movies, because we love sending you guys to movies. So if you wanted to join that, if you wanted to be entered into the giveaway, then you need to go down into our show notes and click on wwwbandomportalspodcastcom or just type it into your web browser and sign on to our emailing list and we will draw our winner on the 30th of April and you may be able to send yourself to the movies with your family, or you can just send yourself four times if you want.
Speaker 1:In May, there is the Thunderbolts coming out, which is a Marvel movie, so you'll get your pass just in time for that. So make sure you go and enter our giveaway, because it could be you. It could be you sitting in there with a free movie on us here at the Fandom Portals podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls here. We are a small podcast, so we really thrive on word of mouth. If you would share this with a friend, that would be absolutely amazing Anybody that loves Fantastic Four, any member of your Fantastic Four family, or just somebody that likes superheroes or Marvel. Next week, braj, do you want to talk about what we're doing next week on the podcast?
Speaker 2:Yes, so next week will be New Mutants, new Mutants.
Speaker 1:I have a soft spot for this movie as even though it was critically not good according to most people, I have a soft spot for it. I think there are elements of this that we can definitely enjoy the new Minz that was made in 2020, directed by Josh Boone. That is our next movie that you can see on the Phantom Portals podcast. Make sure you follow the show so you will not miss that episode. Brash, it has been an absolute pleasure. Some may say it was fantastic.
Speaker 2:And for all our listeners out there. Sometimes you may feel physically rocky, sometimes you just might be invisible, you might feel stretched too thin or sometimes just might be overwhelmed with the fire that is this world currently. But just remember that we love you here and we appreciate every single one of you can't tell that.
Speaker 1:See you guys. Thank you so much.
