.jpg)
The Fandom Portals Podcast
"Welcome to Fandom Portals—the show that explores how your favourite fandoms can help you learn and grow!" 🎙️✨
Each episode, we explore TV, movies, comics, and games to reveal how these worlds and the characters in them help us learn about resilience, courage, friendship, and more.
The Fandom Portals Podcast is hosted by Aaron Davies and Adam Brasher, two friends who are obsessed with fandoms, storytelling, and building a community where passion and positivity come first. From Marvel to Middle-earth, Star Wars to indie comics, we dive deep into the stories you love — and how they help us learn and grow. ✨
The Fandom Portals Podcast
The World of Hollywood Stunts with Stephen Koepfer. Insights and Safety on Set
Summary
Aaron interviews veteran stunt performer Steven Koepfer, who shares his journey into the world of stunts and martial arts. They discuss the importance of safety in stunt work, the various roles within the stunt industry, and the evolving perception of stunts in Hollywood. Steven also provides insights into his experiences working on major films like John Wick, Ray Donovan, The Walking Dead and upcoming Hollywood productions Eugine the Machine and Caught Stealing. He emphasizes the importance of taking opportunities and managing risks in the stunt profession.
Guest: Stephen Koepfer, Stunt Performer/Co-ordinator
Podcast: Film Fights with Friends
Takeaways:
- Steven Koepfer's journey into stunts was inspired by iconic films.
- Martial arts played a crucial role in Steven's stunt career.
- Safety is a top priority in stunt work, with a focus on risk management.
- The relationship between stunt doubles and actors can greatly impact performance.
- TV shows often have tighter schedules, increasing pressure on stunt performers.
- Stunt coordinators have significant responsibilities regarding safety and planning.
- Pain management is a common challenge for stunt performers.
- The stunt industry is evolving, with increasing recognition and respect.
Sound Bites:
"The biggest thing to look out for is complacency. More injuries happen on the stuff we consider easy day-to-day stuff." - Stephen Koepfer
"Safety is a team sport, it's not one person. Everyone on set should feel empowered to speak up if something seems unsafe." - Stephen Koepfer
"I was nervous. I was now on John Wick 2, the biggest set I'd ever been on. A lot of people are watching, you know, this rookie, how is he going to handle that pressure?" - Stephen Koepfer
Chapters
05:36 Steven Koepfer's Journey into Stunts
08:44 The Role of Martial Arts in Stunt Performance
11:15 Working on John Wick and the Stunt Industry
17:42 Understanding Stunt Roles and Responsibilities
23:21 Becoming a Stunt Coordinator
26:41 Safety in Stunts and Managing Risks
37:41 Pain Management and Wear and Tear in Stunt Work
41:49 Differences Between TV and Film Stunt Work
48:25 The Relationship Between Stunt Doubles and Actors
54:05 Future Aspirations in the Stunt Industry
56:38 The Changing Perception of Stunts in Hollywood
01:02:22 Final Takeaway and Advice for Aspiring Stunt Performers
Apple Tags:
Stunt Performer, Martial Arts, Film Industry, John Wick, Safety on Set, Stunt Coordination, Hollywood Stunts, Action Movies, Film Fig
Contact Us:
Website: https://www.fandomportalspodcast.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FandomPortals
Instagram: instagram.com/fandomportals/?locale=en
Threads: threads.net/@fandomportals
Email: fandomportals@gmail.com
Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/fandomportals
Hey everyone. It's Aaron here from the Fandom Portals podcast. This week's episode, we feature stunt performer and coordinator Stephen Keffer. He is an amazing guest to listen to, guys. He's actually worked on lots of projects, everything from John Wick 2 all the way from the Walking Dead and anything in between. In this episode, we talk about his breadth of work. We also talk about how to keep safe on sets when you're performing stunts, and you can really hear his passion for the industry, guys. He's a martial artist by trade as well, and he also gives us some really great insights at the end of the podcast that inspires others to go ahead and follow their dream, because he turned his niche martial arts form into a career. So if you love this podcast, guys, we would love for you to share it with a friend, and we hope you enjoy this episode with Stephen Kepfer.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast, the podcast that explores how fandoms can help us learn and grow. I'm Aaron, a teacher and lifelong film fan, and each week we are on this podcast to explore the stories that we love, to learn more about ourselves and the world that shapes us. Today we're diving into the high-impact world of stunts with someone who has thrown punches, dodged bullets and leapt off buildings for their favorite characters. Joining us today is the incredible Stephen Kepfer, a veteran stunt performer, martial artist and fight choreographer. Stephen's worked on everything from American Horror Story, ray Donovan, to the Blacklist. With a resume full of action-packed titles and a passion for the craft, he's one of the people who's making magic truly physical. How are you going today, stephen? It's good to have you on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Hey, great to be here, man. I'm glad to be coming here to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too. Me too. First of all, I wanted to plug, and give you a chance to plug, your podcast, which is the Film Fights with Friends. That which is the Film Farts with Friends, that is a passion project of yours. Did you want to give us a little bit of a rundown on what that's all about?
Speaker 2:Well, sure, thanks, man. My partner, paul Veraci, who's also a stunt performer, started this, well, you know, over a year ago. Basically, the short story is I've been on. I had been on like over 50 podcasts in the last, you know not like, not last year, obviously, but 50 podcasts in the last, you know, not like not last year, obviously, but like over the last decade or so. And a longtime editor that I work with started a small studio here in New York with a sound engineer, rich Butler, and they were tired of working for everybody else. They started their own small studio and they were like Steve, you've been on so many podcasts, you need to have your own podcast, all right. So I was like, ok, so like I do everything. I said, hey, you've been on so many podcasts, you need to have your own podcast now, right. So I was like, okay, so like I do everything. I said, hey, paul, you want to do a podcast. So Paul was like, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2:And honestly, that's how it started and we wanted to you know, not do a quote, unquote stunt podcast. We wanted to do more of a filmmaking podcast. So we do talk about stunts a lot, obviously, but we have actors, directors, makeup artists you know anybody from any craft in the filmmaking business will come on our show. The central kernel is fight scenes. So every episode starts with a fight scene that the guest was involved with in some way, and then we organically go from there. We try to start with how the fight scene is written in the script and take it all the way through to the final cut what changed, what didn't, how'd you get there? And then you know then about our guest's career in the industry and like wherever. It's a pretty organic conversation. We don't do any pre-interviews or anything like that. We just let it fly, you know. So it's been fun. It's been fun, I think we're.
Speaker 1:This weekend we'll be recording episodes 37 and 38 yeah, I've been able to catch a couple of episodes and I like the fact that, on the YouTubes at least, you have like a table in the middle of you two guys and you change up the decor of the table for every guest that you have. I think that's really, really unique.
Speaker 2:It's really good we try to bring in. Like Paul, my partner is also hardcore into collectibles. He has a small business with another partner and I've always been, since I was a kid I was Star Wars figures, right, just collecting stuff. So I have, we both. Between the two of us, we almost always have something for the table that fits our guests, you know. So, like, for example, this weekend.
Speaker 2:By the time, I don't know when this drops, but this episode that we're recording this weekend won't drop until September. But we're doing a remake round table, right. So it's. We have two prior guests coming on. They're not telling us what their choices are, but it's their favorite remake and their least favorite remake, right? Oh, nice. So, and none of us know what the others are choosing, right? So I know for myself, I'm picking the thing as my favorite remake, and then one of my least favorite remakes will be peter jackson's king kong. But I was at the premiere for peter jackson's king kong, so I have all this cool stuff to put on the table. You know, like from from the premiere.
Speaker 2:So yeah, we try to, we try to customize it. You know, if I have a star wars thing, we, we try to customize it. You know, if I have a Star Wars thing, we have Star Wars. If we do, if we know we're doing. You know Christmas, we do the whole Charlie Brown. We put Christmas lights all over our table and stuff. We try to dress it up each episode, personalize it a bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. We have that in common with the Star Wars figurines too.
Speaker 2:I definitely grew up with a couple of those. I don't know if any of them would be worth any money, though, because I played with them until they were dirty and yuck.
Speaker 1:I'm a nerd, you have her on a boat, buy one to keep in the box one to open up and play with.
Speaker 2:That's smart. I have this one right here. Hold on, I have this one. This one is an original. Empire Strikes Back the Cogtower pilot. But what makes it valuable is they say that Free revenge of the Jedi figure with six proofs of purchase. This is before the recall, when they were promoting Revenge of the Jedi.
Speaker 1:Oh, instead of Return of the Jedi. Yeah, exactly, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:And I saved this one from when I was a kid. I bought this and never opened it, and now it's like branded and all protected.
Speaker 1:I was going to say it looks clean, as that's so good, totally.
Speaker 2:We're nerds like that. I think our podcast strikes a nice balance between technical know-how of filmmaking and also, you know, the nerd factor. And then every once in a while we'll do a Stephen Paul only episode where we kind of just dive into our nerd, our nerd selves more.
Speaker 1:It sounds good. All right, if you haven't followed it already, listeners, make sure you go and check out the Film Fights podcast. Steve, I want to wind it back a bit because you are very passionate about the stunts and in the stunt world and martial arts. I want to know what was your path into the stunt world like. Were there any movies or heroes that sort of inspired you to jump into the craft?
Speaker 2:yeah, 100 man, I mean like any kid born, and I was born in the late 60s, so by the time I started really paying attention it was the spielberg years, you know. It was like, and or at least the 80s, 70s and 80s movies. So Empire Strikes Back more than Star Wars itself, although Star Wars was certainly an epic moment for me. I, you know, I definitely remember going to see that with my father and we were actually on a road trip, you know, my dad, every year we'd do like this father-son trip somewhere. And then this movie came out, star Wars. We're like, oh, let's go check that out. You know it's like, oh my God. And back then I was like, you know, you had to wait, wait, wait, wait, another three years till the next one came out. And then when Empire came out, I was blown away. Still my favorite of all the IP, with the exception, I say, of like probably Rogue One is my number two now. But then, and then just that year, the next year came out Raiders of the Lost Ark, and that really really tapped into something about me as a 13-year-old boy and like my ideas of manhood and adventure and like all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:And then by then I kind of knew I wanted to be a filmmaker or somehow involved in film and like so at that time I was kind of day camp, you know, as a kid, but my parents were sending me to filmmaking camp. So already back then we were shooting every summer we would script to screen, shoot and edit something. As you know kids and they were I guess our counselors were the film students at, like, new York Institute of Technology here but so I really got into it. And then, you know, my father had a Super 8 camera so we would shoot stuff on film and actually edit it, you know, with scotch tape and scissors and make our own little films. So I wanted to be into it, for into this business forever basically.
Speaker 2:But I kind of didn't want to be a performer, I wanted to be the makeup guy. Like back then my library, my bedroom library, was like all the behind the scenes, the how-to, the makeup. And then I'd say the next movie that really was influential to me was American War from London. Oh, nice, john Landis. Like that movie blew me away. You know that movie blew me away. You know that movie blew me away and, you know, never went back. Man, you know, I ended up as a performer because of martial arts. Like, martial arts kind of brought me there, you know. But before I ever started performing stunts, I was already making documentaries and and other things, like from behind the cameras. And then, you know, one day a light bulb went out because a stunt coordinator I met said oh, you should really think about stunts. You've got all this skill and you've got all this skill. You should put it together. And that was 2014 or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so 2013, something like that I was gonna ask about your, your martial arts background, because I wanted to know if that sort of naturally sort of wove itself into your film career. And obviously you spoke then about some early mentors that helped you sort of break into the industry. Did you want to discuss how that sort of pathway and that avenue of martial arts has helped you along the way?
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean martial arts. My life, like a lot of people in this business, my life has been, all you know, my winding road of other careers and things that I've done before. I actually was able to make a living as a martial artist and then as a in the film industry. But I started martial arts when I was seven or eight. My mom put me in like karate daycare. You know. I was a lash key camp. Both my parents worked. And then my mom was a professor at Queens College she's a geneticist and a biology professor Ashkey camp both my parents worked. And then my mom was a professor at Queens College. She's a geneticist and a biology professor. So she would. They had a program at the college for faculty kids, you know you could put them in there. So I went into karate, not asking for it, but that's just where she put me, planted the seed, you know. And then by the time I was in high school I started on my own training and I did that for a couple of years, gathered no expertise, you know, like seven-year-old kid, seven eight-year-old kid. But by the time I got to high school and I could choose for myself what I wanted to do, I went back to martial arts Been ever since. So back then it was Taekwondo and that was like great Olympic Taekwondo. That was Taekwondo. That was when Taekwondo was in the Olympics. So I did that for many years and then, you know, I got my black belt and I was teaching that for a while. Then I moved over to Sanshao, which is Chinese kickboxing, like Sandah Sanshao it's basically like MMA without the wrestling, it's just kick out, punching and throwing, and I did that for many years. And then I met my Samba coach in 1989 and it's been Samba ever since. And then in 2003, I opened my own school. So I've been running my own school.
Speaker 2:And then in 2000, like 2005, I quit my day job to do that, to take the leap and do that full time, you know, to see if it worked. And it worked, you know that's so good. Yeah, and I was studying Samba. For those who don't know, it's a russian style, it's basically like john wick they try to emulate as a sambo guy. In fact his character is supposed to be a sambo guy and that's how I got to work on those movies.
Speaker 2:But you know, before I actually got into the industry officially, seven was my first real job and it was on the tv show human weapon, which was where they would travel around the world and do all the different martial arts and stuff. And I was an advisor on the sambo episode. Right, they found me because of my youtube channel. So, like you know, in 2005 I started, I started putting up sambo instructionals on youtube and then they found me and then a couple years later I I get a call from Chad Stahelski, who is people who know he's the director, you know, the co-founder of 8711 and the director, the first John Wick and he I got a call and basically invited me to work on the movie as a consultant.
Speaker 2:Come by the rehearsals. We need, we wanted to, we want to see how a Sambo person would do certain things. I wasn't even in the screen actress guild yet, so it was like all just come on by and hang out and and see how you like it. But when I asked him how he found me, he said he was always subscribed, sharing youtube channel man. I was like, oh, this is awesome, you know.
Speaker 2:So for everybody out there, your social media is really important, you know like I don't consider youtube social media, but at the time it was kind of social media ish. You know we didn't really have like what we have now back then.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's be careful, what you put out there it could, it could help you, it could hurt you, yeah I definitely agree, yeah yeah, in my case it helped big time yeah, I think it's a really great way for like exposure, obviously in the early days for you with your your work on on john wick. You mentioned that that was probably one of the first sort of film sets that you worked on. Is that correct? And if if so, like what was that experience like when you went there? You went on as a sambo coach. What was the day-to-day like for you is what I'm sort of asking sure?
Speaker 2:well, I, when I when I worked on 2, john Wick 2, I was never on set. I was always just in rehearsals and working with the Scott team behind the scenes. I was never even on the set. So I mean, it was cool. I got to work with JJ Perry, who was the supervising stunt coordinator, and obviously meet Keanu Reeves and work with the whole team, jackson Spidell and Eric Brown and all these guys who, like people who pay attention, now know who they are, but maybe back then they didn't know who they were Then and I wasn't union yet, right, so I wasn't on the set. But then shortly after that I got into the union and then Chad called me and said hey, you want to work on three, and so my role on three was predominantly also not on set, although I did spend a couple days on set as the Sambo coach in the theater the training scene in the theater, with Angelica Eastman in that scene, when Keanu comes back to the theater and all the kids are training Sambo and all the girls are training ballet, which, of course, now is the segue to ballerina. Right, that's the timeline there. So, but for about two months, before that ever happened, I was working with with 8711 on casting all those Sambo kids. So we were holding the auditions at my, at my gym. At my gym and because I'm in touch with that community here in the United States, I was able to invite all the Russian kids and Russian coaches and all that stuff to come audition for that scene. And then I was also working with Wardrobe and you know, basically providing them samples of what authentic uniforms would look like and then also providing them with footage of my training in Russia and different Eastern European countries so they can get a sample of what an authentic sort of, you know, like you ever see, the movie Warrior, right, with Tom Hardy, right. So you had the super high-tech gym, and then you had the dingy-tech gym, and then you had the, the dingy gym, you know, and so the, the Savo training facility in the theater, was supposed to be closer to the gym, the type of gym, not the high-tech, super tech soviet, you know, like rocky floor, you know like kind of thing. So it was like I had video of training in places like that. So I provided that to them, worked with casting, worked with word, I was working with everything. And then finally I was on set for the for two days.
Speaker 2:That scene was two days shooting and on set my job was to basically what they call special ability coordinator. So special ability performers are they're above background but they're below stunts, so they're like people in the scene for those listening. There are people in the scene for those listening. There are people in the scene that have a skill that you want in the scene. So like if you know, like when James Bond walks into a training facility and you got guys throwing each other and beating each other up and training hand-to-hand combat in the background, those would be special ability people. Like there are people that are maybe trying to get into the union as stunt performers or they just have a skill that we need in the scene. So and somebody has to tell them what to do. So that was me right.
Speaker 2:So I was the one kind of directing what was happening with all those Sambo people in that scene. It was really, really fun. You know it was. It was a ton of fun, got to meet, like it was. It was actually Actually, I didn't know I was going to do that.
Speaker 2:So I show up on set just thinking I'm going to hang out and get to be a coach in the scene and then I hear on the walkie talkie Chad is like I need Sambo Steve on set. I need Sambo Steve on set. Like Sambo Steve is my name, yep. So I go on set and he brings me over to introduce me to the director of photography, dan Laston, and then he's like Steve, this is Dan, dan is Steve. He's like okay, so we need something going on over here. We need something going on over here. This is how we're going to shoot it, this is where the cameras are Okay.
Speaker 2:And then Chad grabs a PA, gives the PA to me and says you just do it, you just make it happen. Like that was it. He just put me in charge in front of everybody. So for me, as a new person in the industry, that was actually really important. Right One, I was nervous. I was nervous as heck. Now, on a big you know this is a big movie production, biggest set I'd ever been on, and a lot of people are watching. You know this rookie, how is he going to handle that pressure?
Speaker 2:So it was it was fun but nerve wracking and but it did help me level up. You know, in the business People saw that I don't crack under pressure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really good. What an opportunity and what an experience as well from Chad Stileski to work on such a like a blockbuster movie as well, but also to be thrown in and, you know, put your passion and your training to work in something that was really going to be and really combine those two elements. You know film and then also martial arts to lead that sort of team and it obviously did well for you as well Through your discussion.
Speaker 2:In Stombo specifically. Right, like, how often does that come along? Like you know, people, like everybody in the stunt business, gets in, sort of gets in the door for something, and then they just have to start learning everything else that they don't know, right? So, like, how many other Sambo movies are there going to be? So I got lucky, like that's that I got in because of fighting at Sambo. But then it's like, okay, well, now I have to learn how to drive. Now I have to learn how to do this.
Speaker 1:Now I have to let you you have to go back to drawing board because you can't make a career off of doing a very niche thing. So I was very lucky, yeah, and I think those movies as well the John Wick franchise really reinvigorated the action franchise for the modern era as well. They started as a very sort of arthouse, underrated sort of experience, but now they're definitely a staple, as you said. You know, the Ballerina series has started to come out as well. Through your discussion there, you talked about a lot of different sort of roles in the, the stunt profession. Myself I'm a little bit of a rookie in the in the stunt field. I know about stunt doubles, I know stunt coordinators and, obviously, stunt performers. What are, what are some of those roles that occur on set for people that are into stunts, and which ones have you preferred to perform through your career?
Speaker 2:well, basically I would say there's different answers to that question. So, like, from a contractual perspective, there's two contracts. Basically it was Screen Actors Guild here in this country anyway. You can either get the stunt performer contract or you can get a stunt coordinator contract. That's it. Those are the two. You're either the coordinator or the performer.
Speaker 2:But in reality you could get a stunt performer contract but your job role might be a stunt rigger, for example. Right. So like for those not those don't know the rigger is the person who's handling all the wire work, all the, you know, flying people Generally on the set. You'll have riggers that are with IATSE, which is the stage and the stage workers union, and then you have stunt riggers. So basically all rigging that has nothing to do with a human being they handle, right. Any rigging that has to do with flying a person or manipulating a human being in space, then the stunt riggers do it.
Speaker 2:So a stunt rigger would be one key role. I mean, basically they have stunt double, obviously, which is still under a stunt performer contract, but you would be doubling. Then they have what's called utility stunts, which is basically you're hired to do whatever they need. So the people that get those jobs are the people who are very well-rounded. You're a good driver, you're a good, you know. You know some rigging. You're a good fighter, you're you know. You have lots of different skills. Maybe you're a good safety person. Maybe you know fire you know, maybe you know fight choreography. Maybe you know how to shoot three of this you knows. You might know how to shoot and edit 3Ds.
Speaker 2:So if they want to hire somebody who's going to be able to bounce from job to job, that would be a utility stunts contract, you know. So under a utility stunts contract you could also be a stunt double, for example. But if I want a stunt double contract, technically I'm not supposed to do anything else except that. So the utility is an all-encompassing type thing. Then you've got stunt coordinator, right, and then you've got what's called a covering stunt coordinator. Maybe the stunt coordinator needs you to cover him because he's going to be on a different unit that day. So you might get hired on a stunt coordinator contract just for that day or a couple of days. The covering stunt coordinator is not available.
Speaker 2:Within the performer world, as many expertise as you can think of, there's a specialist that does it. You know driving people, fire, fire experts, water experts, you name it. There's an expertise you know like. I know a guy who's a professional skateboarder that's what got him in the business or a guy named Eddie Fiola. He was actually one of the riggers when I worked on devs for Alex Garland's TV show. One of the riggers, eddie Fiola, actually got into the business decades ago in the movie Rad. I don't know the movie Rad the BMX movie.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, it's always there.
Speaker 2:Any Fiola is credited for creating freestyle BMX, right, so that's what got him in the business. But when I met him all these years later, he's a ringer, you know. So something gets him in the door. But if you want to stay in the business, you have to learn all these different things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds like versatility is the key for a stunt performer. There, Obviously, there are all those different roles. So how does the coordinator fit into that as well? So you said there were two different sorts of contracts. All these ones sort of fall under the stunt performer With the coordinator. That sounds like a boss level job, you might say.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, coordinator say yeah well, coordinator is a department head, right, so the department a stunt coordinator sometimes. I've spoken to many coordinators. I've coordinated a few swaller independent films and stuff. It's not only my main gig, even even on those, you're, you're dealing with budgets, you're dealing with hiring, you're dealing with risk assessments, you're dealing with all the safety stuff regarding stunt stunt days. You know like so it's a stunt day. You're, you're the main stuff regarding stunt days. You know like, so if it's a stunt day, you're the main man regarding safety. So you've got a lot of responsibility that you have to cover.
Speaker 2:And I know a lot of stunt coordinators that would prefer not to be coordinators on a cell level because they get taken out of the creative fun stuff. You know what I mean. They're too busy being a department head. So, casting you know like we don't have agents really, so it's all word of mouth or who you know. So they're looking at casting.
Speaker 2:So it's a very high pressured job. You know that you have to really be a good administrator, you have to be a good leader and you're going to, let's say, the script calls for something that you're not an expert at, but you're going to have to know enough to find the expert, to consult, to hire, you know, to hire for this. So coordinating is the operative word there. You're coordinating the entire stunt department and it's a lot. Most coordinators will have an assistant coordinator because they can do it all, and they'll have a stunt PA usually or an administrator that can do all that stuff for you and it's a big job, it's a really big job yeah, and you've said as well that you've done a few smaller sort of stunt coordinating roles.
Speaker 1:But you've also told me that you've. You're just about to start your your first sort of feature stunt coordinator role in Eugene in the machine that's coming out this year so people should look out for it.
Speaker 2:I don't know when. I know it's been picked up for distribution. That was my first feature that I was the key stunt coordinator. It's not a huge action movie. It was just in my wheelhouse, perfect for a first, like time, you know, in the in the coordinator's chair, as it were. But a of fights, a couple of small falls like very manageable stuff. That's in my wheelhouse. No pyrotechnics, no, you know, no fancy rigging, none of that. It was basically all fights and falls, the bread and butter stuff Of the stunt mode yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally, and yeah, starring Scott Glenn and Jim Gaffigan. It's a great story. I don't want to give away any of that, but you guys should definitely check it out. Working with a legend like Scott Glenn was everything you had hoped it would be. He's just, he's badass, Even at 80 plus years old, you know, still challenging people to push up, push up competitions and stuff. And you know, he would the best that he would tell he would tell he would, you know, tell stories on set, talk about legendary movies he was in, you know. And then I would go back to the hotel that night and get on my laptop and like go back and re-watch these movies, because now I have like a different context, and like, oh, he just told us all these amazing stories about urban cowboy working with deborah winger, you know. And then, like I'd have to go back and watch that scene, I'm like, oh yeah, now I see what he's talking about. You know, like there's a scene in urban cowboy For those who haven't seen it, it's when John Travolta is is the guy who is like the mechanical bull rider, His girlfriend is girlfriend, he's a factory worker, but he, you know, on this he's on his off time, he's in the bar riding the mechanical bull and doing that whole thing.
Speaker 2:He's like kind of a wannabe cowboy, right. And then his girlfriend is Debra Winter and she kind of gets smitten for the real cowboy who is Scott Glenn, right. So they go to the rodeo and Scott Glenn gets on the bull and he's about to ride the bull and the bull throws him in the pen. He gets thrown between the ball and the wall of the pen. He's crushed in there and he was telling me that actually he broke his arm Like he. That actually happened. That whole scene, if you watch it. He gets thrown by the bull, gets up on the bull and then rides it. But he broke his arm for real, got up on a pole with a broken arm and rode, rode the pole for the scene. I mean it's just like you know the old days of of of stuff. You know what I mean. It's like it's. It's just great, though there's not too many guys I can have left, like that old school. You know, yeah, Man's hero, yeah, zero meaning man.
Speaker 1:I have a couple of questions from some listeners as well. Just while we're touching on that, rich, one of our listeners. He says injuries must come with the territory. Have there been any that have really stuck with you just working on that broken arm that you spoke about there and like when safety is a really big concern? There's lots of people that sort of coordinate, that sort of position and do the risk assessments and things like that. As a stunt person, if you assess a stunt or something and all the tests have been done, do you have a say in whether you go ahead and perform that if you yourself think it's safe to do, or is there any sort of back and forth in that space? And yes, obviously injuries are a thing of the business.
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean's. It's a great question, rich, I mean. Everybody always asks you know about injuries. Honestly, I've had more. I've had more, knock on wood, I've had more serious injuries in my martial arts career than in my career. But the biggest problem I would say no problem the biggest thing to look out for is complacency. So when you're on a set, a just put all the risk assessments and the planning aside for a second.
Speaker 2:I would say more injuries happen on stuff that we consider easy day-to-day stuff. You know, more concussions happen on simple falls or, quote-unquote, simple wire gags. Maybe you're doing a small hand pull, you know something like that. Like those are the ones where I think people take their eye off the ball and you know oh, we've done this a thousand times, it'll be fine, you know. But if you look, if you look for, if you look through OSHA, which is the Occupational Safety Health Administration in the United States, they'll investigate incidents after there's an incident at a workplace. In our case, the workplace is a bill set Across the board. I've read tons of OSHA reports Across the board. Those sets are being cited for not having contingency plans for failure, for not properly playing for failure right, so not having an ambulance on set or not having you know the proper this or that or whatever. You know so, and I think there's a lot of what's called normalization of deviance, and so what that means is you do something wrong enough and nothing happens. You start to believe that you're not doing it wrong and then something happens. You know, but I was doing everything right. It's like no, it actually weren't, you were just getting lucky all the time, you know.
Speaker 2:So, having said that, safety is a team sport, it's not one person. And so to the question like do I have the authority to step up and say no 100%? I do. The problem is is there's so much pressure to not say no, you know. And so I think it's very important for the first AD, who is the first AD is technically in charge of safety on a set, even above the stunt coordinator. Usually it's the first AD who will run the safety meetings and you know if they might ask the stunt coordinator to speak to something, but it's usually the first AD that runs it.
Speaker 2:The stunt coordinator, obviously, regarding the stunt itself, is the person who did all the risk assessments and stuff like that. People should be encouraged to throw out questions, any questions, you know, it's like guaranteed in the safety thing, somebody has somebody has a is having a hesitation, maybe warranted, maybe not, but more often than not people won't speak up. There's too much pressure on the performer to do it. You know, I at my age I don't give a shit'm gonna be like, if there's something, if there's something that like I don't want to do, I I just won't do it or I'll just say, hey, is there another way we can tell this story without doing this? You know, like when you're talking about assessing risk, basically let's say you discover you, you, you're gonna do a stunt. Let's say it's a discover you, you're going to do a stunt. Let's say it's a stairfall, right, and so you say, oh, there's hazards involved with this stairfall.
Speaker 2:Or you look at what are the hazards? Maybe it's about the environment, the environmental specific. Maybe it's the type of stairs. Maybe it's there's a bastard, maybe there's no bastard. Maybe it's the length of the stairfall. Maybe it's a two-person stairfall. Maybe you know you're, the ground is concrete at the bottom. Maybe it's a two-person stair fall. Maybe you know the ground is concrete at the bottom. Maybe it's a stair fall into water. I mean, there's all different things, right. So you assess the hazard. Then you have to decide is that hazard worth it? Like, can we still tell the story and replace something and just completely get rid of that hazard? Like maybe we don't even need to be dealing with that hazard? You know, maybe we can cut something out and still tell the same story and get rid of that altogether, because in the end, stunts are about telling the story, right.
Speaker 2:It's not about like, can we do the coolest thing? It's about telling the story that the director wants to tell and maybe we don't have to do all this stuff. So let's say you can't cut out the hazard, you can't avoid it. Then what can we substitute? Do we have to do a stair fall down 40 stairs? Maybe we can just do it down 20, you know. So you start looking at how you can substitute things to minimize, to help minimize the risk. Let's say you can't substitute it, then you would go to like engineering-type mitigation. So, okay, I did a stair fall down in a factory on blue bloods. Right, it was just metal stairs with metal banisters in a factory, right. So what did they do? They actually covered the stairs with molded rubber to make it look like corrugated metal right, so that would be and that's an engineering type of mitigation of risk.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm still going to fall down the stairs and and, to be honest, that rubber was hard or it was like I was like, did you guys even put anything on here? Because it was, most importantly like talk about, well, I'll get to it. But so let's say there's an engineering way that you can mitigate a risk, right, let's say, after engineering, then there's what's called administrative mitigation, which is training people. Right, you train. You train your workers, you train your performers, you train everybody, right, you train. You train your workers, you train your performers, you train everybody.
Speaker 2:And then the last way of dealing with a risk, which is the least successful way of dealing with a risk, is ppe, right, personal protective stuff like has everybody knows ppe from covid, right, but it's like it also is like harnesses and elbow pads and hip gear and mouth guard, like that's all PPE. And the only time you use PPE is when you haven't been able to eliminate a risk, right? So that's the one stage in that whole thing where you can't eliminate a risk. So, for example, that stair fall, the wardrobe that I was wearing did not allow me to wear pads. You know what I mean. So the pad and stairs were even more important. You know. So, like, basically, whenever you look at a stunt, you want to go through these stages. Do we even need to do this? We do need to do this. Can we change it up? If we change it up, can we add some other you know stuff to help soften the blow, and so on and so on and so on. And you should do that for every stunt that that's happening. And here's the thing, let's, and you should do that for every stunt that's happening. And here's the thing. Let's say you're on set and the director says and this happens to me. I'll give you an example. The director says you know what? I'd like to shoot it this way. And then you start from scratch. If you don't go through that little click in your mind, that little process, again, that's where injuries happen. Most injuries happen when people are rushing, they're not paying attention or whatever. I was doing a wire gang where we had rehearsed it. We had rehearsed it as just a straight up pull right.
Speaker 2:It was in this movie, save Yourselves. You guys can check it out. It's a really great sci-fi movie and so on. The first one that gets killed by the aliens during an alien invasion, right? So I'm running through the forest, upstate new york. I'm running through the forest, actually right near woodstock where the the concert, the historic concert, was. I'm running through the forest being chased by an alien. You don't see the alien because they're doing it like jaws, right but right. But I'm being chased. I'm in my underwear, like the story is, like the alien interrupted way.
Speaker 2:I'm getting ready for work in the morning, so I'm just hauling ass through the woods and simultaneously there's the two protagonists, this couple. They're sitting in a canoe. They're a couple having a relationship problem, so they're trying to get time away. See, the whole plot of this movie is they're a couple having a relationship problem, so they're trying to get time away. See, the whole plot of this movie is they're trying to save their relationship and their friend gives them a cabin in the woods. Go tax on time away, get off the grid, turn off your phones, get off the internet, turn everything off. So they totally get off the grid and at that moment is when the alien invasion happens. So they have no idea what's happening in the world around them. And so they're meditating in this canoe and they're cutting back and forth to me being chased by the alien.
Speaker 2:So I get to the top of the stone wall and the way we rehearsed it was. I get to the top of the stone wall and I'm waiting for, like for help, save me, save me. And then the alien is like a frog. It has a long toe, which is the wire pole right. So then I was saying save me, save me. And then I'm gone and they hear me scream and they open their eyes and they're like.
Speaker 2:The directors were like and I actually agree with them and they were like you know, if you're really right for your life, you wouldn't stop at the top of this wall and just you, just keep running. You know, they were like let's try it that way. But we didn't rehearse it after, we didn't go back and do the process right. So they were like okay, we'll run up to the wall. So now we did what's a combination of what's called a dead man. So for those listening, a dead man. It's like when you're running and you run out of wire and you get pulled like. A example would be like you're on a horse, you know, and you're you're gonna try and go under a tree branch, but the branch hits you in the head. So they measure it. So you run out of wire just before you hit the branch and then so you'll get pulled off the horse by the wire but it looks like you hit the tree branch right. So that's a dead man.
Speaker 2:But then we added the. We added a dead man aspect to what was just going to be a static bolt which increased the velocity, to what was just going to be a static bolt, which increased the velocity, increased everything. We had 25 feet of pad for my landing track on the other side of that wall from the pole. When we added me, running up to the pole, I cleared the pads. There was so much velocity I just landed hard on the ground into almost into a tree, into a thorn.
Speaker 2:Bush Got my arm all ripped up because we didn't rehearse it. We didn't say like, oh wait, we're changing this, let's just do a quick rehearsal. We didn't, we just went right to it because there's pressure, the cameras are rolling, it's independent film, time is money, blah, blah, blah, you know. So you have to go through that process. That's a long one. Did Wade answer that question? But in the end, everybody on set. There's a hierarchy, right, there's a hierarchy on set who can say what, when, who. When it comes to safety, there should be no hierarchy. The lowest person on the totem pole if they see something unsafe, they should say it. You know what's the worst that could happen, like, oh no, we got it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for letting us know, though you know shouldn't shouldn't stay quiet on anything about safety yeah, I think it goes back to that old adage that safety is everyone's business, especially when it comes to to film sets like that. Uh, it sounds like through your career you've, you've, you've obviously had some incidences like that. But you said also that through your martial arts you've, you've suffered some injuries, and I'm sure some stunt performers have also had some pretty big injuries as well. I have christian, who's my former gridiron coach. He's got some injuries of his own. He says how does stunt performers manage pain, as it must be part of the job, and how do you personally deal with the wear and tear of stunt work in the industry?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's two different questions. But the wear and tear. You definitely have to stay fit. You know you have to. I mean I'm not going to say anything that would be surprising. You know you have to manage your diet. You have to get physical therapy if you need it. You have to take care of your body. You know you're a professional athlete, essentially right, so you have to just maintain your body. Pan is just something you deal with. You get used to dealing with it. You know, for some reason the body is really good at blocking that all out. When you're on set and they say action, you, you don't say anything, you don't feel anything, you just do it, you just pop into it. You know it's all.
Speaker 2:The other times, like when I wake up in the morning, it takes me 10 minutes for my knees to like yeah, yeah, totally. But like, for example, like that stair fall I told you about, I have in my left leg from my martial arts career, not from my stunts career I have like 11 screws and a plate in my left leg. I broke my leg in two places about 15 years ago. At some point during that stair fall my ankle dinged the banister of the stairs. I have no idea. When I watched the video a million times in the slow ocean I can't quite tell. It wasn't like a transverse hit, it was probably just a ricochet like yeah, like a glancing blow glancing, yeah, and the whole day after the.
Speaker 2:You know I did that. I did it once. They were happy. You know I didn't have to do it again. I was hanging out on set helping a stock coordinator move all the pads, put everything away, just just chilling glad.
Speaker 2:Good day went to, went to my trailer tanzantan Day. After I wrapped, get out of wardrobe, blah, blah, blah. I drive home, take a shower. Everything feels fine, everything's cool. I sit down on my couch to play PlayStation. I put my phone up and I look at my ankle and it's swollen like this big. I'm like, how did I not, how did I not? I had the biggest egg on there, like where I, where I hit and it was like so painful. All of a sudden I'm like, oh my God, that hurts, you know. Meanwhile, the last six hours I didn't feel a thing, you know. So there is definitely this psychological thing about pain, you know. But you, just, you just end up sucking it up. You know, if you do feel it, you, you stock it up, get the job done and hopefully transition to more behind the camera jobs later as you get a bit more experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds like there's like a threshold and also probably that adrenaline as well to perform the task and so like focus orientated in your job, that it just sort of goes by the by the wayside at the you're super focused, you know, like before the director, before they call action, you're for me anyway.
Speaker 2:I've got television on everything I've got to do, especially if it's an acting like, if I have to say dialogue, that scares me more than any stunt. You know, I'm not a trained actor, so I get you know we'll, we'll all get these roles where you have to deliver a few lines if you're a bad guy or like, whatever I'm like. Oh my God, I did. I did a job on that show, hunters on Amazon, and I get killed by Sister Harriet and she puts a gun and blows my head off, right. But I had a couple of lies. I had to say to her I didn't care about the backfall, I didn't care that I was falling without a pad or anything like that and I had no pads on. Like, that doesn't bother me at all.
Speaker 2:When they said action and I hear her going through the party and she's asking people, you know, you know this guy, do you know this guy? And I knew she was going to approach me and I had my lines to say. I was so nervous. Plus, I had to do it in a German accent, you know, because I was playing a german. That was like hiding in the states for like, only here is that? Yeah, so I was. I get real nervous about the acting stuff. I don't get so nervous about stuff. It comes down to your focus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it comes to that comfortability sort of thing. You know you've probably done a million falls in your in your time and that's just sort of second nature to you. But then, yeah, with the, with the talking on the, on camera stuff, it's just a whole different ballgame. And then, combining the two, it's like your brain's working in two different spaces at once. Yeah, totally yeah, let's go back to your body of work, because you've started to do some work on a film that's coming out called Caught Stealing starring Austin Butler.
Speaker 1:I believe it's a sort of a dark comedy and it says you've got a driving credit on this one. So so what? What did that involve? What was your set experience like working on something that is coming out now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was that was. That was a fun couple of days. I got to work on that job. Outscaling is based on a novel and it's a Darren Darren Aronofsky movie, which, by the way, is a kind of a full circle moment for me because, remember I told you before, there was a stunt coordinator who suggested I go into stunts because I had these skills. The reason the reason that I met him was because I had produced a proof of concept back in 2013 or 2014. And it was a friend of mine who's a writer was pitching a TV show and I produced the proof of concept and then I also choreographed the fight scene in it. It was like an MMA fight, probably in my wheelhouse, right, but anyway, because we had Al Iaclenta from UFC was in the proof of concept and I've known Al since he's like 16 or 17. And so he was in the proof of concept and I've known Al since he's like 16 or 17. And so he was in our film. And then Darren Aronofsky was considering at that time doing a TV show, so we got called in to pitch the show to his people, right, and I met the stock coordinator there, and then the rest is history. He's the one that suggested I think about stunts as a career. Aronofsky never picked up a TV show. He never did a TV show. But all these years later I get to work on an Aronofsky movie for the first time, so that was pretty cool To the job on set.
Speaker 2:I was basically brought in to do what they call indie driving and so light what I would consider light, very light stunt work. I was in the hot seat for a little bit, but it was a couple of days of playing a cab driver driving around downtown Manhattan in the suns. And then there's one scene where Bad Bunny runs across the street not paying attention and I have to almost hit him. He was almost hit by a car. So when you see the movie, that'll be me. But it was fun. It was like and the only actual member of the cast that I met because I spent the whole two days sitting in a car, you know, just waiting for my, for my action and over and over again and and doing that kind of stuff. But I didn't meet in makeup.
Speaker 2:I meet this guy and he's like he was just so excited to be there. He's like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm in this movie and this is amazing. And he was just so I thought. I thought he must be like a new rookie guy, you know, like fresh face. I didn't recognize him Blinging clean shade of face, like kind of shorter back, like stocky guy. And then I then I found that afterwards as action Brosnan rosman, like the rapper right. So I was like oh my god, there's actual rosman. I had no idea, dude, but like so he's in the movie. So that was a cool little moment. But honestly it was just a fun two days of driving a car, driving a car on carol, you know, and then almost saying goodbye yeah, put that on the resume yeah, yeah, yeah um, you've done a lot of different sort of work in in the tv and the action sort of movie space.
Speaker 1:What are the biggest differences in terms of being on set for those types of things, or does the work really not change between those two sorts of spaces?
Speaker 2:Well, I will say, probably 85% of what I do is TV, and you know so I haven't been on too many. I've been on, like you know, five or six feature films. I would say, though, the biggest difference with features, generally speaking, is you do have more time. You have more time when you're doing TV shows, especially if they're cross-boarding, which, for those listening, meaning you're filming multiple episodes at a time out of order. We got to get this episode done. Maybe you've got seven or eight shoot days per episode, so there's not a lot of rehearsal time. There's not.
Speaker 2:It's like, so, I would say, for a performer, if you're working on tv and you you have to know 100 what you say, if you have to be able to do what you're, say you're you can do to get the job, because there's no, most of the time you're showing up on set and performing with no rehearsal time. If you're lucky, they might have an early call or pre-call where you could rehearse a little bit. You know what I mean, but even even yeah, I mean, I think there's only really been one or two shows that I've been on where they've had a lot of rehearsal for fights you know, like I I doubled leo raz on on the show, crowded room for apple and there's a couple of big fight stands in there, where that was it.
Speaker 2:You just show up on set and they show you the previs maybe or where they the coordinator, had worked out what they want in the fight, and you just watch it and learn it right there and do it. You know, like you don't have a lot of time to prep, so you have to, I think, be like the. Obviously the stuff is less complicated because you don't have like weeks to rehearse and train and do whatever you do on a movie. So you might get, let's say, a 12 or 15 beat fight for a TV show, but you have to do it right now, like there's no time. There's no time to play it Like you have to do it right now and make a look at. You know you don't have time to work out the kinks really. So I would say it's probably the biggest. The biggest thing is time, yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you think that sort of increases the pressure as well? Obviously you said that you have to get it right, but the pressure and then obviously we were talking before about the safety element and going through the checklists of those sort of safety concerns Working on the TV is there more pressure to actually get it right first time?
Speaker 2:Oh for sure they you know we joke. We say you want to be a one and done person, you want to get it done once, like on that stair fall. They loved it the first time. They don't have to waste time doing it again. I was on an episode of Dead City Walking Dead recently where I had to do a little ball Like I get pulled killed by a zombie right, and we had rehearsed it one way. I mean we didn't have advanced rehearsal, we were just on set. We rehearsed it one way a couple times the director wanted to try it a different way and it didn't really work a different way. But he was getting really frustrated because, you know, I mean we only did it like four times and it was just not a lot. But every time it's like let's get this done, let's get this done. You know it's like there's a lot of that kind of pressure. There's a lot of that kind of pressure. He wasn't mean about it, but you could just tell yeah, nature of the business kind of.
Speaker 1:thing. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:There's definitely, especially, I would say, if you have kids on set, like we had, under 18-year-old on set. So now you have even less limited time because there's child labor laws. They can only work for X amount of hours, so now you're adding additional time pressure to get stuff done. So definitely, tv, tv, it's the time pressure. Yeah, some people like that. I don't mind, I don't mind the pressure.
Speaker 1:I find she'll bring the pressure you've done some work as a stunt double across a few tv shows. You've doubled henry winkler and eddie marsden as well. I've I've heard that the relationship between the stunt double and the actor can be like quite important. Is that sort of true to say, or or is it more just like a both of you sort of get your jobs done in isolation? What's? What's the relationship there like between actor and double?
Speaker 2:it could be.
Speaker 2:It can be both of those. So, for example, like Eddie Marson, I doubled for the run of a show for a whole season, right. So we got to work together a lot and so that relationship was important because I was going to be there all the time, you know, and so you want to be, even though, let's say, I doubled him. I worked with him for four different fights. Only one of those fights I had to be on camera because he was really good enough to to do it himself, but we had to teach him it. Part of my job is to help teach him with the stunt coordinator, teaching the choreography to rehearse it. And, like Ray Donovan, we were lucky. We got two rehearsal days for every fight, right. So for so we had two days and then I was set the third day. So we got some good rehearsal time. And you want to have that good relationship because in between the takes I was set he would come up to me how did that look? Did that sell? He feels comfortable around him. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:But the Henry Winkler job, for example, it was like one day I was in and out, that's it. It was just in and out for a fight stand, you know you don't really have much of a relationship. I've doubled a lot of people. I doubled Beck Bennett on Saturday Night Live. You know it's like come in for one day, do the stuff for him, go home, you know. So then you have the flip side. I doubled Zach Grenier on Ray Donovan and he also played. He played the mayor on Ray Donovan. So I doubled him too.
Speaker 2:And then he got Dev in. You know the Alex Garlis show, and he's the one that helped bring me over because we had such a good relationship. So then I ended up training him for this fight scene at my studio before we went out to California. So in that case, again, it's about having a good relationship, you know. But in the end my job is to support their ability to do what they have to do right. It's not really about me at all. So I'm very happy if they can do it all themselves, like that's, it's, that's the best. Like for the, for the show, that's the best. If it's their pace, it's them doing it. But sometimes it's not.
Speaker 2:You know, like in Devs there's a scene where he has to climb out on the ledge of a building to stop Sonia Mizuno from committing suicide. So they that we shot that over four days, two days of it. This is like on a six, about six stories up. They had a giant scaffold built up to level the the ledge and sonny was, you know, and zach did it, did it themselves because if they fell they were in full two feet to a to a padded scaffold, right.
Speaker 2:But those two days, myself and linda jewel, who was sonya's double, had to learn the lines. We had to memorize how they moved, we had to mimic them and then day three and day four of that shoot, we take the scaffold away and we redo the whole entire scene with us saying the lines and everything. You know what I mean. It's like doing the scene and trying to be them. And this was for the drone shots or for the crane shots and shots from the ground, looking up all the shots that were not close-ups, you know so. But again, that's about the relationship, because I'm spending two days with him up there in the building like talking with him, helping him, like with with the physical actions of climbing over this railing and climbing over there and how you're going to do it, and then so you have to find this thing, that this, this little ground that he feels is comfortable for him, but I also then have to be comfortable, so it's like it's a lot of practice, yeah, but you can't do it if you're not getting along.
Speaker 1:No absolutely yeah, especially in a show like Ray Donovan. I know that Eddie Marsden plays a character that is a boxer, so nailing his movements is probably really important if you were going to actually double him on set. Yep, yep.
Speaker 2:There's a moment, there's a scene in that season. One of the fight scenes is a bar fight, right? So Eddie was also training with a boxer, with a boxing coach, on very specific Irish style boxing right for the character, and so. But Eddie has this thing where he would keep his pinky out.
Speaker 1:He would be like it was weird he'd be like close your.
Speaker 2:If you guys go watch it, you'll see his little pinky is always kind of sticking out a little bit. And so we had to do this big bar fight, like four on three bar fight. And so we come in a pre-call for like two hours literally we, the stunt coordinator, dr ham, choreographs the whole fight with us that morning. There's no rehearsal, like what we're talking about for this one. And then when we shoot the wides, right, we shoot the wides, we do the whole fight with all the stunt doubles, you know, because we're talking about for this one. And then when we shoot the wides, right, we shoot the wides, we do the whole fight with all the stunt doubles. You know, because we're all crashing into tables and all this stuff. And then when I come out, the DP was like holy shit, I thought you were Eddie, like because they were at the matters and they were like you've had the matters, I was so good. We thought you were Eddie, I was about the manners I was so good.
Speaker 1:We thought we were eddie. I was like no, not eddie, so that's the compliment you want, right? Yeah, totally, absolutely. That's so good. You've obviously done a lot of work in front of the camera and you're starting to do a little bit more behind. Do you think you? Do you think you would like to pursue more of that coordination sort of role, or are you happy continuing to get the the sort of stunt roles and advising and helping the, the actors, perform these stunts to the best of their ability? What would your preferred sort of future look like? I guess you could say in the stunt business, good question.
Speaker 2:I mean I like all of it. I really do like all of it, you know. So I like, I honestly think I'm a good producer, like you know. I have that sort of organized brand, so I think that is sort of organized brand, so I think that is sort of a superpower on the short films and other things that I've served as a producer on. It's like I'm pretty good with that. I enjoy that organizational side of things, you know, and being a creative producer too, where I'm also advising on some of the creative aspects of the production.
Speaker 2:But I don't I enjoy coordinating. You know I don't ever see myself, I don't aspire to be like a coordinator of you know, of being giant feature. Like I've talked to too many of those guys where, like again, like they feel like they're kind of taken out of the fun stuff. You know, I like I like coordinating independent fellows because you're still sort of part of that whole process. You know know of really diving in and how do we tell the story? You know, like, like eugene the marine, the one that I that I worked on was scott glenn, uh, the director, hank benford. That was his second feature and he's also a lifelong wrestler and a jujitsu gal, right. So it was so much fun because, to come up with the fight scenes, it was Hank and myself and another friend of Hank's. We just got together at my gym all together. I mean, how often do you shoot pre-vis with the director doing the fight choreography? Yeah, it's like so much fun, you know, and so I like that part of it.
Speaker 2:So whatever engages my creative brain is enjoyable, you know, I mean just recently I can't mention who the actor was, but just recently we were I rented out my space to a production to come in and just use to train. You know they sent the trainer with this actor because they had to train a very specific skill, definitely something I would not have been able to teach them, but they used my space because they were in New York and just even that was so much fun being able to be there and just to talk with them and watch the process, watch how the. Jojo Eusebio was the person I was training up, so you guys can look it up. Jonathan Eusebio was the person that was trained up, so you guys can look it up. Jonathan Eusebio is a legendary stock coordinator, new director too.
Speaker 2:But I basically like the collaboration, I think, if it comes down to it, I really enjoy collaboration. I really enjoy engaging the creative side of my brand and whenever all is said, I honestly don't care, as long as I get to do it as long as it's working and it's in what you love.
Speaker 1:Hey, yeah, yeah. We'll take a few minutes now to have a chat about the recognition of the stunt industry across Hollywood, because I know that some people have mentioned it as being like the ugly stepsister of Hollywood, and you know like, for example, the Oscars just recently have said that they're going to be awarding a stunt category award, have said that they're going to be awarding a stunt category award. What are your thoughts on how the perception of stunts has changed throughout the years?
Speaker 2:culminating in that, obviously, sort of Oscar recognition that they're going for now. I mean, I would say I haven't been in long enough to see the full arc of change of perception. Yep, but if I were to go back to my childhood, nobody, you know, I didn't go to my high school guidance counselor and they didn't tell me like, hey, there's this job, that there's this called a stuntman. Yeah, there's no clear pathway, is there? Yeah, yeah, it's like you just don't know about it. So I think the fact that it's a known thing now is very different, obviously, like I mean, take a, you know, there are stud performers in the early days that nobody knew existed because the productions were so invested in keeping it secret that the actors were not doing it all themselves?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, like you know, douglas Fairbanks had a stunt double. Nobody talks about that. They I mean not that he wasn't amazing, but he had a stunt double you know, Dick Talvich was his name, by the way.
Speaker 2:You guys got to look it up, richard Talvich. He was one of the early silent era, early days of talkies stunt guys. They would bring him in during lunch breaks and they would film scenes, you know, and then he was gone by the time they came back to shoot. So it's very different. It's so far different, right. So it's very different than it's so far different right. That now the stunts and the behind the scenes, how they did it, is how they market the money. So, like it's, it's the complete opposite of being secret. It's the complete opposite of the man behind the curtain, you know.
Speaker 2:So, and it's a very interesting time in in the stunt business because there's all this paranoia that we're going to be replaced by AI and all this kind of stuff and at the same time, more and more people are interested in practical stunts than ever before. So it's this weird sort of juxtaposition of what's going on in the culture right now. I'm personally not too worried about AI, like, I think there'll always be a place, there will always be directors that want to do things practical. There will always be an audience for people who want things practical. So I'm not too stressed about it. I feel like, not that it's not a worrisome thing, but I feel like it's overstated. I feel like the paranoia is overstated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's fair to say as well. I think human, human create, like getting a few people into a room creatively is something that ai really just can't replicate, especially when it comes to, like your fight choreography, working in the moment, just doing those kind of physical things. It's very difficult for an ai to sort of generate that kind of thing. But yeah, I think you're right, because the like, the stunts and the marketing behind the stunt sometimes sells the movie, like mission impossible, built a franchise on it, for example. But yeah, I think it's, it's good to hear that Dunstard getting their day in the sun and they're, they're sort of being more respected or not more respected, but they're, they're being shown to people more often because people do definitely put their, their bodies on the line for for the art and I mean.
Speaker 1:I think, spectacle too.
Speaker 2:I think the recognition you asked about the Oscars. I think the recognition you asked about the Oscars. I think the recognition is great. It's not something that I personally would have went to the mat for. Like I don't. I think it's great that we have it. I think it's deserved. But if I was going to choose something to fight for, there's other things I would fight for, like mandatory ambulances on set.
Speaker 2:Like I would fight for that before I fight for an Oscar. 100%. So I think there are more important things to fight for regarding set safety and the culture of filmmaking than an Oscar.
Speaker 1:And it's an evolving space, isn't it? It's constantly moving toward that direction, because I think everybody is concerned with being more safe for the actors and performers that are going about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, I mean the flip, the flip side is the oscars might help that though. Like yeah, you know, it's all, it's all tied together like the publicity of that might might make it more talked about in the public space. But you know, like I mean how we hear about deaths and serious injuries all the time and it still hasn't sparked a movement in the industry. It's still, you know, still every time somebody dies or is maimed or is severely hurt or whatever there's about, you know, three or four days of people talking about it in the tabloids or in the trades and then they're just up to the same old cowboy mentality, you know. So something has to call on outside the industry, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:I think change like the industry absolutely can change. We've changed for hashtag Me Too. Right, they created a whole new paradigm of how to work in, you know, with regard to sexually explicit things, sexually suggestive things, like how to protect people in that space. They completely changed the industry. Same thing with COVID. Look how fast the industry responded to COVID. But the deaths on set and the serious injuries on set have yet to cause that kind of movement in the industry and that's kind of sorry. So I think something is going to have to happen from outside the industry. There's going to have to be pressure from outside the industry and that's and that's kind of so, I think, something that's going to have to happen from outside the industry. There's going to have to be pressure from outside the industry, like was with COVID and the hashtag and stuff, to make the industry change.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, for the safety of everybody, I hope it kind of moves in that sort of sort of space as well. Yeah Well, yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show. I really do appreciate your time and really appreciate your insight. It was such a great chat. Before we sign off, we always sort of finish with a most valuable takeaway from your career or a lesson you've learned from a mentor or somebody that you've worked with, or just from your experience on set, so leaving our listeners with a valuable sort of takeaway from your career I I would say I mean, there's been, there's a lot of it.
Speaker 2:I I think the one thing that I find myself suggesting to people a lot is like, for example, we'll talk about my career and people will be like, oh man, that's so cool. I've always wanted to do that. You know, I always thought that maybe I could do this. But like, if you, if anybody out there and it doesn't have to be stunts, I mean whatever it is there's if you have a voice in your head saying try this, whatever it is something that you're passionate about, and you have the other voice in your head saying you know the imposter syndrome, or whatever, the other boy saying you'll never make it, don't even bother, just like, tell that other voice to shut the fuck up, walk through that door and try what's the worst that can happen it doesn't work the best I can have it works.
Speaker 2:You know I mean so, like we. Every day we have doors that open to us. Sometimes we see them, sometimes we don't see them, but they, they're always opening. There's always opportunities appearing. And just do it, man. Just take the opportunity that comes. Have faith that it'll mean something. Don't let the negative voice tell you not to do something that you want to do. That would be my one piece of advice. I like that.
Speaker 1:And I feel like you've actually lived that too. Obviously, through your, you've been put in situations where, with the John Wick sort of movie that you were talking about before, where you hadn't experienced or done anything like that before, but you jumped in and you did the best that you could in the time and it's obviously led to a lot more opportunities that happen. So I think that's really valid and, yeah, you've a living example of it too. So, again, thank you so much for your time. I really do appreciate it. Listeners, make sure you go and check out the Film Fights with Friends podcast. They can find that everywhere. Is that right, steve?
Speaker 2:Yeah, pretty much everywhere on YouTube and if you want the video, it's on YouTube and we drop a lot of behind the scenes footage and B-roll, so it's worth watching the video if you're into video podcasting, but we're also pretty much everywhere Apple, spotify, amazon. You know we syndicate everywhere. It's an audio podcast too. Yeah, yeah, very good.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, go and check that out, guys. We really do appreciate it and thank you again, steve. It's been an amazing chat and thank you for your time. Yeah, thank you, and thanks for getting up so early to do this. Really, really generous to be around. I'm not a morning person. I appreciate it. No, I definitely appreciate your time, so it wasn't a trouble at all. All right, thank you, see you later, take care.
