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The Fandom Portals Podcast
Fandom Portals is a film analysis podcast that proves your favourite movies have something to teach you.
Each episode explores the deeper meaning behind popular films and what they reveal about identity, growth, and human connection.
The Fandom Portals Podcast
Batman & Robin (1997) Love is Not a Weakness | Failure Isn't Final
Summary
In this episode of the Fandom Portals podcast, hosts Aaron and Adam delve into the 1997 film Batman and Robin, exploring its themes of emotional connections, failure, and the complexities of love and control. They discuss the character dynamics between Batman, Robin, and Alfred, highlighting how trauma and attachment styles impact their relationships. The conversation also touches on the film's campy nature, its commercialization, and the controversial design choices of the bat suits. Community reactions are shared, culminating in a discussion about the film's legacy and its place in the Batman franchise.
Theme Arc: Failure Isn't Final
Takeaways
Emotional distance is often mistaken for discipline.
Batman and Robin explores the theme of failure in film.
The film's campy nature detracts from its serious themes.
Love can be a motivator that gives strength meaning.
Bruce Wayne's emotional stunting affects his relationships.
Alfred serves as a healthy model of connection and love.
Mr. Freeze's obsession illustrates unhealthy love dynamics.
Robin's rebellion reflects a desire for autonomy.
The film's commercialization impacted its narrative quality.
Community reactions highlight the film's mixed legacy.
Chapters
00:00 Exploring Emotional Distance and Connection
05:31 The Lessons from Batman and Robin
10:16 Bruce Wayne's Emotional Struggles
16:31 The Dynamics of Batman and Robin
26:26 The Future of Batman and Robin in Cinema
26:59 The Future of Batman and Robin
31:04 Exploring Mr. Freeze's Character Arc
35:28 Alfred: The Heart of the Batman
51:22 The Film's Reception and Legacy
52:08 The Hype and Reception of Batman Movies
52:54 Tonal Shifts in Batman Films
54:21 Marketing and Merchandise Influence
56:29 The Controversial Bat Suits
01:00:15 Community Perspectives on Batman and Robin
01:03:24 Final Ratings and Reflections
01:07:52 Gratitudes and Closing Thoughts
Keywords
Batman and Robin, emotional connections, film analysis, failure in film, character dynamics, love and control, Alfred, Mr. Freeze, Robin, nostalgia
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Do we mistake emotional distance for discipline and control for strength? In this episode, you'll learn how Batman and Robin from 1997 show us that love wasn't something to fear, it's something to fight for. Welcome to the Fandom Portals Podcast, a podcast that explores how fandoms and film can help us learn and grow. I'm Aaron, a teacher and film fan, and each week on the podcast we explore the stories we love to learn more about ourselves and the worlds that shape us. Today I'm joined by Brash, and behind the scenes, this was Take Four.
SPEAKER_02:It was a good start. Good start.
SPEAKER_00:Very good start. But you know what? I still don't think it was much of a train wreck as the disaster of the movie that we have been looking at for this week, which is Batman and Robin from 1997.
SPEAKER_02:I would also like to point out that you guys forced us to watch.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, indeed. This was a community pick. We did a fight bracket, and it came victorious in the end in the beat titles such as Sucker Punch and Scott Pilgrim vs. the World. You had to pick a movie that failed and flopped at the box office. So our theme arc for this one, and this is the last movie in the theme arc too, which is Failure Isn't Final. And it's the movies that aimed high, stumbled, but still have something to teach us. So there's misguided epics, and this series is going to ask us what do stories that failed to find their audience teach us about finding ourselves. So yeah, you guys picked this one for us. It will it actually won by a pretty pretty big landslide, Brash. It was very, very popular.
SPEAKER_02:I want to go on the record that I just sucked a bunch.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yes. That being said, though, we always strive, as is our niche in the podcast, to look for a lesson that this film can teach us. And we're going to go through today some of the reasons why this movie failed, where other Batmans had seen a lot of success. We're going to look at some of the characters in this movie and how they show connection and affection towards one another. And we were discussing before that uh three of the characters in this movie show connection and love toward one another in a very unhealthy way. And one of them is in a in a very more accepting and healthy way. Yeah, less than not healthy. So actually not so bad, but we're gonna get into Brash's famous synopsis of this film. So strap yourselves in. If you're a fan of Batman and Robin, we do apologize. I know it has some nostalgic fans. I am a massive Batman fan. Like he is tattooed on my so we say this with love and just know that we love the characters. This movie, however, fun times. Take it away, Brash.
SPEAKER_02:So I've gloriously titled my synopsis. Batman and Robin, a very serious film about Ice Pun. Is once again peril. But don't worry, because Batman and Robin is here to s to chill absolutely any sense of tension to death. Batman, George Clooney, wearing nipples with the confidence of a man who was not warned, and Robin, Chris O'Donnell, apparently stuck in a teenage angst mode, must face their chilliest foe yet, Mr. Freeze, a villain whose entire personality is based on delivering his ice his motivation motivation to save his frozen life, his method, crying tourism, and stand-up comedy. Every line out of Mr. Freeze's mouth is an isolated comedy of gold. I see what you did there. Let's kick some ice. What killed the dinosaurs? The ice age. Stay cool, bird boy. You'd think after the tenth pun someone would freeze him mid-sentence, but no, this move skates on thin ice and somehow never falls through. Meanwhile, poison ivy shows up, emerging from a plant like seductive environmental Tetalk. Uma Thurman delivers every line while she's floating with the camera for the audience and possibly the concept of photosensitive itself. Her goal said planet a strategy, crimes, pheromones, and flooding so intense that it could cause Bat credit cards to exist. Yes, Batman has a credit card. Yes, it says Batman on it, but yes, it never expires. Robin, feeling overshadowed and emotionally frosted, soks his way through this movie, questioning his role, his place, and why Batman won't just communicate like him and billionaire bat. Their relationship arc is basically couple therapy, but with Kate. Then there's Batgirl who shows up and instantly masters martial arts and becomes a crime fighting icon in about five minutes because why not? Logic left Gotham hours ago and took the last train to any other movie. The action scenes are neon lip fever dreams, gangs wear glowing hockey armor, everyone glows, everything glows, Gotham looks like a city and more like a rejected grave fly from 1997. In the end, Batman learns the true lessons that family matters. Teamwork is cool, and love can thore even the covers heart, especially if you have enough blazers, bat gadgets, and medical science to cure literal 5J. Batman and Ro Robin is not a movie you watch, it's a movie you endure, embrace, and eventually isolate in your memory as one of those most glorious unseen superhero films ever made. It doesn't just jump the shark, it freezes it, shatters it, and makes a pun about it.
SPEAKER_00:Very good. And you know what? I agree with some of the points that you made for sure. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:If you don't get that last joke, it doesn't just jump the shark, because the only other movie I can like Batman movie that's more ridiculous than probably this one is Adam West Batman, where he pulls out the shark repellent from his bat well, spray the shark.
SPEAKER_00:No, this one definitely leaned into the camp hardcore. And I like that we mentioned Adam West because I do think that that was a big influence on this one. We always do a most valuable takeaway. And for this one, we have looked at the fact that love is not a weakness that compromises strength. It is a motivator that gives strength meaning. So we said before that of some of the characters in this movie don't demonstrate the healthiest forms of connection, they don't show love very well or they don't show appreciation for their teammates, but they are modeled and shown how to do that by one father figure within the movie, known as Alfred Pennyworth. And I think this came to my mind because for one, there is a character in this movie that is supposed to epitomize like love and attraction. That's obviously Poison Ivy. And she puts a spanner in the works when it comes to our two title characters of Batman and Robin. But the problems existed between those characters way before she came along. I think primarily we know, and any Batman fan knows, that Bruce Wayne, aka Batman, has a big problem with connecting with people. It is no secret that he likes to work alone. And when he eventually did start to open up to a Robin character, it was a very long and arduous journey. And I think that they do exemplify that in this movie, more so in the one before this, Batman Forever. But I think Bruce Wayne, played by George Clooney in this one, he's a very emotionally stunted, and that may be because the acting is like not the best. And also, as a note, he's the only Bruce Wayne to play Bruce Wayne and Batman the exact same. Every other Batman that I've seen has done them differently for good reason. But he says quotes like, for example, the first line of the movie, the very first thing George Clooney says, but this is why Superman works alone. Like dismissive towards Robin. And you know, there's also a scene where they have this massive falling out where he says, you know, basically, this is my house, this is my rules, classic dad energy. And he's just like, if you don't like it, you can leave. And under my roof. Yeah, yeah. And that happens in the scene after he basically disables his Robin bike, uh, after they're chasing after Mr. Freeze, going down and driving down one of the large Greek-like statues in Gotham City, and he basically just disables his bike. But I think that Robin took that as him not trusting him. But I think Bruce actually did it because he shows care and concern, but he's doing that through control. And, you know, he has a scene later on with Alfred where Alfred actually calls him out on that. He says, I think from the moment your parents were taken away through chaos and and like poor fortune, you've spent your whole life trying to then control chaos and beat death. And Bruce admits he's just like, I and I can't do it, can I? And he goes, No, you absolutely can't. So I think he's pushed that avoidant attachment onto Robin and onto Dick Grayson because their emotional relationship is getting stronger, they're getting closer, they need to trust each other more. So naturally, Bruce begins to pull away. This is classic for people who are like avoidant attachment people, and avoidant attachment people usually they exhibit traits of withdrawal, and it's usually based on the fact that they've had trauma before.
SPEAKER_02:So like you see him when he's when he's at like at the observatory, when he donated, when he thinking like he's his billionaire Bruce Well himself, he's not sort of like he doesn't seem like like say like Nolan Bruce Wayne, where he's like all playing the party boy, he's actually playing like a person trying to do good for Gotham at the forefront, but he's he's got his missus there, yeah and they're like, Oh, you guys gonna hit the knot, and he sort of gets started, like, uh uh and then she sort of asked him and says, Oh, we're madly in love, but who knows about the future? I'm like, Oh yeah. And I don't think we ever see that woman again in the movie.
SPEAKER_00:No, they they she does come back, they have a dinner scene later and she doubles down on it basically because she says, She's like, We've been get this, she's like, We've been together and seeing each other for almost a year now, and I just have to know whether it's time for us to get married or not. And Bruce is like, I'm not the marrying kind, which further doubles down on the like I'm not connecting with you. And she even says, you know, if I try to push you too hard, you will pull away. So I'll give you this to think about, and he gives her a big massive kiss, and she says, Tell me when you're ready to talk about it. So I think that also like shows that he thinks that closeness compromises his autonomy and also his effectiveness to be Batman, because you know, it's common through those Spider-Man movies. He never got with Mary Jane because he was like, My enemies will use that closeness against me. And I feel like Batman feels the same way. Batman does the same.
SPEAKER_02:He does the same. Yeah, that's why that's why he used like that's why you generally the Bruce Wayne Personas, him being a party boy watches, doesn't settle down, does I kinda messiness, especially in the younger versions of Batman. He's like more just full-on philanthropist, and then later on in life it's either Selena Kyle or nothing. Um but in this, he's George Cleaning plays emotionally stunted well because that that is.
SPEAKER_00:So yes, I think what you're saying is very true. I think he was able to play this well. Because because he was.
SPEAKER_02:But no, but I like he uh it's like you know, you see, like, oh you act like happy. He was just like the the the you know the comedy market, no emotion. That was just him this whole entire movie as Bruce White until like the end when he learns all this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, in quotes, learns a lesson. I th I think you're right, and I think he George Clooney in this one was becoming very popular after coming off the back of ER, and Joel Schumacher, the director, was saying that he wanted to get Val Kilmer back for this movie, but unfortunately Val Kilma decided to do a different movie, which I think is called Saint. And Joel Schumacher was a little bit annoyed because obviously the studio was pushing for these films to be brought out back to back due to the financial success of Batman Forever and the popularity that surrounded the franchise at the time. It was just the biggest thing that was going on. So he was forced to actually recast Batman, which, you know, was also another reason why some critics leaned towards it or against it. But he did definitely bring his own Batman version to the character. And I saw an interview with George Clooney as he was talking about this role, and he said, just for the record as well, he agrees that this movie is not so good. But when he was doing an interview for this movie, he kind of said, you know, Michael Keaton played Batman in his particular way, and then Val Kilmer brought something different to that role as well, and he said he kind of had to do something different, also, and there's not much more in his eyes that he said that he could do to bring about his own version of Batman. But I think what he did was he made it more poppy, more cartoony, more what's the word we're looking for here? Campy, uh, and and also sort of brought back that Adam West sort of style of it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, become a bit more for kids.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yeah. And that was also noted by Joel Schumacher as well. He said that this movie was definitely made more for kids, and we'll probably talk about it a bit later as to why that was. But if we're talking about Bruce and the way that he connects in this movie, he's almost he he obviously is a trauma survivor, and he is he's equating this vulnerability to the danger that he's felt before. So when he gets close to people, he obviously begins to pull away, and he's got this control as a safety mechanism now. So everything around his Batman life is heavily controlled. He's got all these gadgets to prepare. We know that he's an impeccable detective, character-wise, and in this movie they show that because you know he's able to guess where Batgirl's college is based on the emblem on her blazer that nobody else saw. But yeah, he's got these safety mechanisms, so I don't think he's cold. I think he's just afraid that love will destabilize him. Because at the start of this movie as well, Mr. Freeze basically freezes Robin, and we know that once he's frozen, he's got 11 minutes, and for some reason it's 11 minutes for the whole movie. Anyone that's frozen, they've got 11 minutes to warm them, but 11 minutes to become Thored, and Freeze actually says, Are you going to chase the villain or are you gonna save the bird boy? He goes, This is why I always work alone, because your compassion makes you weak. And obviously, Bruce decides to put Robin into the warm bath, use his laser to heat him up. The first thing Robin says when he gets out is like, Did we get him? He's like, No, we we didn't. And then from that point on, he's like cold towards him the whole time. Yeah. So I think This is not a joke.
SPEAKER_02:This is my life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and in Batman Forever as well, they double down on that in the in the one that comes before this because there was the moment where Robin was was being held aloft, and so was Nicole Kidman's character who's called Chase Meridian, and Too Faced says, now it's time for you to choose, and he drops them, and then Batman happens. Yes, he does because he's Batman. But yeah, I think he's he's very much headstrong in the fact that he needs these rules, he need these controls, he needs these procedures and they can't be broken. He doesn't really believe in emotional expression as Batman. He seems very dismissive and avoidant in his attachment styles, and he's like very reluctant to say things that denote he cares. And I know that in the cartoon and through the comic books, that develops slowly. So when he gives like a tidbit of empathy towards a character that you know he cares about, like Dick Grayson, you're just like, oh yes, he does love you. So I think like that's what us as Batman fans hold on to. We want to see this hard exterior crack so we can see the gooey center that is Bruce Wayne, because we know he's a man that deeply cares and deeply loves. Because I don't think Bruce fears love because it's weak. I think he fears it because it reminds him of the things that he can't control, and he can't control others, and he can't control the way that he feels about others. So I think that in this one, he definitely can interpret that emotional attunement as a way to like be vulnerable to villains or or whoever, but I think he definitely imposes that onto Robin, and as Robin is growing into a teenage character, quotes, played by Chris O'Donnell, you can see Robin begin to rebel against that. And one of my favorite arcs in the comic is when Robin then becomes and grows into the Nightwing character and he breaks free from Batman because of that element of control. And that's a really big lesson for Bruce because when he goes on and gets subsequent robins, he knows that Dick goes and flourishes on his own, and he made a lot of mistakes when he was actually raising that boy, pretty much. So I think I know he's he's overacted, and I know that he's pretty much too old for the role, but I really like Chris O'Donnell as a Robin character, and I like the way he looks, and I like the way he was introduced in in Batman Forever, that classic sort of Dick Grayson, Flying Grayson. And I really think that he he's a guy that has a lot of sort of family value because he used to work in a big unit in terms of the Flying Graysons in that circus performing stunt. So that's a good connection for Bruce, who has always just been him and Alfred. So I think Bruce Wayne, Batman, shows a very avoidant dismissive attachment style of love, which is not really healthy, but the whole journey of this movie is that he learns to trust in the end, or you know, in some capacity he does. I'll talk about that a bit later too, because that's a little bit weird how he does that. But do you have any thoughts on Robin Brash and how he shows rebellion against this? Hate it.
SPEAKER_02:The character of Rob.
SPEAKER_00:I liked him, man.
SPEAKER_02:So much. I hated him so much. To me, he seems more like a Jason Todd than Dick Grayson. If they had said, oh that's Jason Todd, not to Grayson, I've been like, that's it.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because Jason Todd's more he's more rebellious, he's more headstrong, he's more makes light of situations. Whereas Dick Grayson was always until you get to the point where he does not, he was the perfect Robin in Batman's visit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I feel like in in the beginning, especially in the comic book stories, he was enamored by Bruce and Batman.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And wanted to be that.
SPEAKER_02:And I like and in a way, so Dick knew what kind of man Bruce was and accepted that up until a point when when he himself was then like, if I'm meant to be him, I can't do it. And then that's when he moves on to be nightwall. Whereas Jason Todd, he was all about kicking ass, taking names, getting girls. He was reckless and all that kind of list. And that's why, like, that's how I feel they portrayed this Robin. They portrayed him more as a Todd a Jason Todd Robin rather than a Dick Grayson Robin, because Dick Grayson, original Robin Nightwing, is probably my favorite DC character out of all C C characters besides maybe three arrow. Yeah um but they they did Ark and they didn't do it. And it wasn't a call's fault. He arc he did the best of what he got with the lines they gave him and the direction they gave him. I I I feel like if they had of made it Jason Todd Robin rather than Dick Grayson Robin, I could have believed it a bit more than their relationship.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because I yeah, like because Dick Grayson and me, he's at the very start at least when he first gets brought in with that, he's more of a saviour to Dick Grayson. He's he lost his whole entire family. Bruce Wayne took him from having nothing and brought him in to his family, and then was able to help him get justice for his family by turning him into Robin and by letting him come along and help him helping him go get justice for his family.
SPEAKER_00:I also think that Dick Grayson found justice in his own way. Like, for example, Batman might see justice as as as ending the life of somebody or ending the career of somebody, whereas Dick Grayson I feel like is a little bit more morally attuned, and I think that was the concept between Rule One is no killing.
SPEAKER_02:That's background to rule one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but then like Jason Todd came along, and I feel like he was a lot more violent and a lot more aggressive, and he showed Bruce what the um what the potential was for a child that sort of looked towards him and saw what he did and perceived it in that way, like he saw how that could end with Jason Todd. And I think that that's that's the like the the nuance of of Robin. So if we're talking about Dick Grayson in this movie, for example, he's very much like the rebellious teen, and you can look at him as a boy who is sort of seeking connection because he's always trying to converse with Bruce and bring him down to his level, like he says at the start, you know, why don't I get a car? All the girls dig the car, and then he always says as well, you know, how are we supposed to work together if we don't trust? One another. He says that as part of the Flying Graysons, we're a unit, we're a team. And he says sometimes in order to to win or in order to succeed, you need to trust somebody and rely on them, and that's okay to do. Which you know, I think is a pretty mature way to sort of look at connection. But he's also like interpreting.
SPEAKER_02:He says that though. He says that though. Yet the his portrayal of the actual character contradicts that heavily.
SPEAKER_00:I absolutely agree.
SPEAKER_02:Like he like that's what I mean. Like the way he played the character is more like a Jason Todd character, but they gave him lines to be a Grayson character. So it doesn't really line up. So say if uh so like when he was when uh when Brandon's like, oh no, drop out there, you get frozen and get frozen. If there had been some sort of character play like beforehand, uh he sees like a reflective mirror or some shit on the ground, it was actually gonna dive out there, roll, grab the reflective mirror to block the ice beam and go. But because maybe Batman tries to grab him back and just stunts him from getting there and he gets frozen, then that that could be the whole thing of like, oh you could should have trusted me. I had a plan. Like we've been trained to you though, I have a plan because of your your not willingness to trust me in our unit, it failed and I got frozen.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that that's portrayed through like Dick Grayson as well. He's very reckless and he'll go out and he'll he'll like he'll find trouble and in in a way to try and prove his. That's what annoys me. That's a Chris O'Donnell Robin thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that is a Chris O exactly. That's like more of a that's more of a Jason Todd thing, not like you go out and do rebellious shit just because I go street racing and chill out. That's a Jason Todd thing.
SPEAKER_00:Well well, yeah, he says things like, you know, don't get all protective on me, and he goes, I'm tired of living in your shadow, and he's like, I'm going solo after he gets thrown into a bucket of ice cream.
SPEAKER_02:And this is completely that that that's dick, that's Dick Grayson, though, years and years and years from being like a young kid to being like almost almost adult. Yeah. Going off on his own. It's like they it's like they just did this like time jump.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I um like he he plays off to me as this boy that's kind of in insecure about his emotional attachment to a like a father figure, and he's always he's either being rebellious to try and seek approval and to see like taking these risks because if they are pulled off, he'll be seen as competent by by Bruce Wayne and Batman, and he'll be seen as a valued member of his team, and therefore he'll receive the care and love. So he's almost combating Bruce's avoidant attachment by being overly trying to be overly skilled at things, but obviously not having the background or the experience to pull them off. So he he's craving this autonomy and this belonging. And I feel like boys often do interpret that because his he's not show Bruce isn't showing care towards Robin. He seems like he's showing control. So when he is not emotionally attuned and he is perceiving it as being controlled, it almost leads to him also then being pushed away. And in order for him to support and preserve his identity as Robin and somebody who is independent and strong and somebody who's a valued member of his bat team, he almost then needs to pull himself away from it. But I agree with you where he says things like, We need to be part of a team, you need to trust me more. But then he then doesn't do things that are trustworthy. Like he'll be reckless, he will take risks, he'll put Bruce Batman in very unorthodox positions, he will be swayed by the enemy. But I I do think he's susceptible to Ivy's charms because it it's she reframes his easy Hornong who likes to hit on every single thing that moves. Yeah, but I think she also, when she says, you know, you don't need him, there should be like a Robin signal in the sky. That's like it seems like she's reframing that control into like freedom for him, so that's what's attractive to him as well. And he's finally seeing somebody who idolizes him and likes him, even though it's completely false. I feel like Dick learns that like trust doesn't come easy for one. But the the scene where they've they're said to like rebuild that trust is absolutely rubbish, in my opinion, because at the end of the movie, when they're all working together on the observatory to try and, you know, thaw the mirrors and move the the teleport, the telescope and things like that, Bruce lets Robin and Batgirl fall, and then Bruce doesn't go to catch them because he's like, You've got this covered. And that's like that's completely based on his competence and showing trust on his competence, not like trust for any kind of emotional reason. Like I don't emotionally trust you to to be part of this team and I can have your back and you'll know that I'll be there to have yours as well. It wasn't like that. It was like he's fallen, he's capable, he's good, he's an acrobat, all all fine there. But like he pretty much just let him fall without a safety net. And at the end they had that conversation where Robin was like, Hey, when I fell, you didn't you didn't try to catch me, and he goes, Yeah, I know, because you you really had it covered, and I sometimes have to trust you. And it's like, yeah, okay. But you know, Dick. That's respect.
SPEAKER_02:Not with like convenient convenient. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It just wraps it up in a neat little package.
SPEAKER_02:Like that little like like a little bow, just no.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I couldn't agree more. But I feel like like Dick doesn't want to be alone and he wants to be recognized for his his competence, but he also doesn't go about finding that the right way. He's also trying to find attachment from somebody who is very avoidant.
SPEAKER_02:And this I think that's the trouble with the fact that why uh like that Robin is so old. That that I think that's what makes it so hard to try and convey that because the way he wants to see it, he wants to be trusted, wants to be part of the unit and that. But the way he's conveying it also like seems like he wants to be the like wants him to be the part of figure, but it it doesn't really come off that way because they're both pretty much the same fate.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So yeah. It's not like a father-son or a mentor. And you know, at the end when he says, you know, I want you to be my partner, or he goes, I want you to trust me now when that when they're about to go, and he's going to see Robin's going to see Ivy for that last time. He says, What does he say? He goes, You know, you once told me that sometimes counting on someone else is the only way to win, and you need to trust your partner and you need to trust me now. And he's he calls him brother for the first time. And I was like, Brother's probably all right. Like you're in more of the age range of range of brother right now. But you know, he he wants that love and he wants to feel that love, but I feel like he doesn't want it to be a leash. But he does then again, like as we said, he doesn't do anything to prevent Bruce from dropping his guard or that protection from him because obviously he would feel a whole weight of responsibility if anything was to happen to Dick Grace and Robin. He would he would absolutely go through another layer. He's an adult, he can make his own decision. Well, that's that's where he gets to in the end when he's just like he's falling. If he doesn't catch himself, that's fine.
SPEAKER_02:That's fine. Like when they first brought Robin, like what are you doing with life right now?
SPEAKER_00:I honestly think because this is the only time we've seen Batman and Robin on screen together. I mean, we we got that Joseph Gordon Levitt sort of version of Robin that wasn't revealed until later. Yeah, we've got the Titans, yeah, but I mean like in a cinematic sort of way. So if James Gunn is gonna do it for the DCU, I think that they have to really nail that sort of father-son dynamic, which means they might have to do an aged Batman and a very teenage or new sort of actor in terms of Well, so they don't really need Robin, but they just need to make sure that it's a that's a teen Robert, like or someone who at least can't pull off teen Robert. I'd want to see Damien, man. I'd want to see Damien Wayne.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, 100%. So, but if they if they do do that, if depending on what James Gunn decides to do, because if you zullen Batman Brave Bold, I I kind of hope I hope they don't play it like Brave in the Bold.
SPEAKER_00:I hope they go with Damien and they already they give us a adult Nightwing and that history is explored later through character development. That's what I hope. I hope that Nightwing can be already developed.
SPEAKER_02:It depends more on the timeline of when they're gonna put Batman in. So if it's if it's gonna be if they're gonna put like I wouldn't mind a movie for Batman, not like a Batman begins or a that way where it shows him falling down a well again and like that's my atmosphere until he becomes Batman.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've we've done the origin. We've done that so many times. And I don't think anybody can beat the origin more than the Nolan movies did. Like that that's an that's the epitome, really.
SPEAKER_02:And and like we've done the year one with Robert Pattinson. That was Batman Year One. Fuck the not uh that's one of my favorite Batman movies.
SPEAKER_00:That is my favourite Batman movie. And Pattinson's my favourite Batman, I'll go on record and say he's my favourite Batman.
SPEAKER_02:I I have to say same. Um because I I love Year One. I love like because you s you see him, you s you see him because they sort of did it in other gnomes Batmans with Christian.
SPEAKER_00:Christian Bale.
SPEAKER_02:Christian Bale. They sort of do that with him when they were but like he went basically straight from having no sort of Batman gear to just being full Batman.
SPEAKER_03:Started out.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we'll start out, whereas here you see him like he's still wearing like knee pads and shit and just normal combat boots and shila. And you see him, yeah, you see him like wearing like Batman does it for like one fight in the Noller movies.
SPEAKER_00:And also his Batmobile, the Patterson Batmobile is also like a muscle car that's been rigged out with armor, which I think is absolutely perfect.
SPEAKER_02:Like a um, chasing yeah, so good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like when he's chasing down the paint. Yeah, we'll we'll do an episode on the Batman later, but we'll we're digressing.
SPEAKER_02:Anyway, I'll digress it. Yeah, anyway. I'll go back and go back to my what I was initially saying. We've had the origin story explained to death. We've had the year one now with Rob as I wouldn't mind now one where because realistically, Batman should have already been doing his thing before Superman gets on the into the page. So I reckon if we pick up where Superman is with Batman, Batman should already have Robin. Robin should already be like almost ready to move on, and then either and then either we can get sort of a Damien in in like the second movie or maybe the third movie or or we do you think because the thing is before Damien we have to have Jason and Tim. And it might explore like some facets of like him now because of what happened to Jason, it might have a new like maybe if like what happened to Jason, and Jason might still be dead. Um and you might have Tim Meow, and then all of a sudden, like maybe in the second movie Damien comes into it, and then there's that dynamic of he's got Tim, but now hey, here's Damien, and then it sort of like brings up a an assay to explore some sort of like competitive sun art. So there's contention between the two robins, and then because then Tim might end up going, nah, screw this, you can have your fun, I'll go be a Robin for like Teen Titans.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, or form the Teen Titans, which would then progress into something else that James gun.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, like a Teen Titans movie with Cyborg, Beast Boy, Raven, and Starfire.
SPEAKER_00:Starfire, yeah. Yeah, I think that would be the go. But I like in this Robin, I can definitely agree. Chris O'Donnell, I do like him as an actor. I like this this Robin, and uh, but I do agree he's too old for the role. But I I think that he and that sort of pushes the point as well, where he's trying to form that connection with Bruce, but you're already like you're acting like a teenage brat and you should be a fully grown, like you look like a fully grown man. So yeah, it's hard, it's hard to look at the biggest.
SPEAKER_02:You're looking at the giant man child.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And also the way that he's acting seems seems immature. Like the the way that they these fights were choreographed and the way that the arguments sort of ensued between Bruce and and and Dick in these in this movie felt to me like I was on yard duty at school and there was like two kids that were saying, and then we lie on our backs and knock our feet together, and ice skates come out, and then you go get the diamond, and I'll go get like it just felt like two kids were just thinking, What's the cool thing that we could do here for Batman and Robert? But let's talk about Victor Freeze because he he weaponizes love in this movie. Like he's obviously using it as a motivation to fix his emotional damage. You could say, like, he's turned his love into this obsession, and she he's literally got her on a pedestal. Like you could say it's on a pedestal in a glass tank pedestal.
SPEAKER_01:And also the scariest part of the scariest part of that is it's probably the most comic accurate part of this entire movie is just Victor Freeze minus the thousands and thousands of puns.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I think seems more of like a cat and cool than a thing to do.
SPEAKER_00:They they actually did that because Arnold Schwarzenegger is known for obviously having those famous one-liners. So I was like, well, let's put 27 of them in this movie. Hopefully, one will stick. And also, marketing gold. You can just put the one-liners on all of the commercials and it'll sell. But I do agree, like Mr.
SPEAKER_02:Freezer is a dole where you press a button and he says one-liners.
SPEAKER_00:Blows blue. Yeah, pull the pull string. But yeah, he's he's definitely using that that love and that obsession as a way to drive his motivations. Like he says at one point, if I'm to suffer, humanity will suffer with me. And that's after Ivy obviously tricks him into thinking that Nora has been killed. But yeah, he his devotion to Nora is definitely comic accurate, and it's a way that he justifies his cruelty and his hostage taking and the mass harm that he's doing. For most of the movie, he's just procuring diamonds, though, and he's not really doing any research to save Hearst. I would have liked for the motivation of him to continue his research to be more foregrounded than him wanting to freeze the world. Like that that revenge plot sort of happened a little bit too soon for me. But like he he's endlessly watching old wedding footage to show that like he's not integrating his grief into his life. He's kind of the opposite of Batman in this stage, where Batman's going towards the end of his grief journey through his parents, and he's just at the start of it still obsessing over it. And he becomes violent when he's sentimentally exposed as well, when he's watching those videos, and the henchman comes in and says, Mr. Freeze, you want to see this? And he literally picks up a gun and shoots him and freezes him cold and flat because he sees him crying. He has to be interrupted while watching his Yeah, well that's that's the line that he says. It's like, don't you hate it when they're talking the movie? But yeah, it reflects this complicated grief arc for him because I I feel like his attachment is, excuse the pun, frozen in the point where obviously he's trying to to fix something that he can't. But his like his devotion is undeniable. His weaponizing that love is very much an unhealthy sort of mechanism, and it proves that like a lot of people get away with doing things in the name of love, but I feel like Mr. Freeze and Arnold's portrayal of him proves that like love doesn't redeem you automatically or it doesn't make your actions justifiable. Because without compassion, it just becomes his own personal prison. Like you see him in the beam of cold light, but you could also say like him not processing that grief properly or working towards a solution that is actually helpful, whether it be personal growth or research-based, he's actually just stunted and frozen in this space of trying to cope with something that happened in his past he's not able to do. But he does sort of make Batman think about the way that he connects with others because he's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy for Bruce because he's like Freeze loved this woman, and now she's gone, and she's like he's turned cold-hearted as a result of that. So it sort of doubles down Bruce on being that detached. And I think that for that reason, Freeze and and Batman in this movie couple very well. And it probably had the potential to be something very emotionally driven and a little bit, you know, darker or an emotional journey that could explore those sort of facets of healthy love and unhealthy love, and healthy connection and unhealthy connection and moving past grief as it happens. But yeah, alas, we were given this soapbox childhood poppy.
SPEAKER_02:As a whole, the story arc of this movie I think was absolutely fantastic. Well, if if you take away all the puns and the other bits of bullshit and pettiness and so that and just as as a storyline of Batman versus the villains, I love Mr. Freezer's story. And even Pamela's coming in off he was not like because um because you could you can see even when they decide to honor up, you could see it was never gonna work. He wanted an ice age, she wanted a jungle, ice and j ice and plants, they don't mix. No, so like you knew there was gonna be some be some sort of falling out between those two as well. And for me, like just thinking about that as a movie, I'll be like, hell yeah, it's gonna be awesome. Like Gotham's gonna turn into this giant like rainforest versus ice age, and then Batman's gonna try and stop it all, and it was gonna be so good. But then it just sort of became a sort of joke on itself. But I I believe as a whole, the story itself is solid. It's just what they did within the site, that's all.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well I I think alone the the Victor Freeze arc would be enough to drive an emotional beat through a movie because he's got this, like he's got this moral tunnel vision, which is very compelling as a villain to to look at and see, because I think everybody can say that they love somebody enough or have loved somebody enough to move mountains for that person. So it's a very sort of relatable trait that Victor Freeze has. And this this fixation that he has is obviously the antithesis of that. It's the absolute extrapolation and the far versus like vision of of that love. So it's it's like he doesn't want to accept a world where that love for him does not exist anymore, and he doesn't want to exist beyond her. So he he has this narrowing of ethical concern for all others based on this attachment loss that he has. So he goes through these complicated grief patterns, and then he's like, instead of like bereaving the person or grieving them properly, he's like almost warped to this reality where love becomes the only thing that matters and it quietly erases literally everything else that should. So yeah, it literally shows that that unresolved grief and the patterns of like single attachment that seems unhealthy and the fact that he's he justifies harm to others as a result of his unhealthy connection and his obsession. But I think that Freeze is like I always took him as a really sort of shallow villain. Like, you know, you he's a he's a man that makes everything cold. But I think what what they do with him in this movie is pretty good. Like the Arnold Arnold Schwarzenegger side of it and the puns and things like that, not so good. But I also loved how you know how Arnold Schwarzenegger's like Mr. Olympic and he's extremely like a big burly man. They kind of address that in this movie too when they were doing the dossier file on him when they were like, he's a two-time deck athlete champion and a research scientist. So they're like, uh the reason he's so huge, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:The reason why he's big and strong is because yeah, for a scientist. Yeah, but it seems to me that Mr. Freeze character is meant to be cold and calculated, and that's why I think that's why they made his character ice related, because he's such a cold calculated person. Yeah. But in this, he like he he he seems cold and calculated because he gets one up on Batman Robin like the whole entire movie, he's one up again, and it's almost like it's almost like it seems like there's a plan. But you you don't you don't actually and that's what I mean with Batman Robin, how Robin's always like, oh yeah, let me you don't trust me, blah blah blah. And I'm like, well, you because you really haven't shown anything to say why he should trust you. It says you're being reckless because you are being reckless. Like if it has some sort of if there's some sort of design like a what's that camera showing you something closer. Well, it's some sort of like a monster. I I was like being honest with you. show you like with the camera like cinematography. Maybe cinematologies, yeah, some sort of cinematography that shows you that he had a plan before he gets interrupted by Batman and gets frozen or something. Same with uh Mr. Freeze it shows that he had some sort of plan. The only plan is oh look, they're gonna have a diamond here. Let's go crash a party and that's it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And he's built the whole calculating part. Where's the whole calculating part of Mr. Freeze? Where's the scientist from Mr. Freeze?
SPEAKER_00:The Love Sub plot is is back seated for the jewelry heist, which I didn't really like because it was almost like he was powering his like he was it was like he was on a this vicious cycle because he was trying to steal diamonds to power his suit so he could do the research but in going to steal diamonds he would deplete the energy of his suit and therefore need to go out and get more diamonds.
SPEAKER_02:Well no this thing is like he needs diamonds to pair his suit to keep himself cold and then he needs big diamonds to make a device to hold Gotham hostage to get a billion dollars.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah to fund his research.
SPEAKER_02:He has 13 diamond or nine or 13 diamonds in that fucking device that's enough for a grand the funds right there you don't need to hold them hostage just sell the diamonds and do your research sell the diamonds get all the money hit off somewhere with melanor no Nora Nora Nora sorry Nora Nora put Nora somewhere in a different country with all your money do your research and save your life and then live your life in a different country and never go after Gotham again and you sweep but no no we're gonna concoct some stupid plan to create a giant ice age in Gotham by stealing a whole bunch of diamonds worth enough money that you could use for research.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah Miller I know let let's let's talk about the way that Freeze's arc ends so let's talk about the ending of Mr Freeze in in Batman and Robin. So we we get this scene where you know he's shown mercy by by Batman at the end and he says you know if you could help me cure Alfred then obviously I'll get Nora moved to your Arkham facility and you can continue your research there. So he ends with a little bit of mercy and I feel like Arnold Schwarzenegger plays that really well like emotionally you can see on his face he does seem really good. Yeah it's no it's not like the uh CGI tears that you see imported in earlier scenes but I and then and then it shows that almost after credit scene where he goes and then tries to get revenge on poison ivy. So as an audience member for me I look at that and I can see like he's still angry he's still isolated he's still unhinged he's still like caging everything up and even after being shown that mercy he retaliates rather than releases his control on this obsession that he has. So his love never transforms into this compassion it remains like fixed exclusive and punishing and you know he has he still has no moral concern of others he's still like revenge seeking and that like the love can no longer adapt for that. So it it can only save you when it includes someone like beyond yourself. And he's he's really just sort of done that turnaround again. So as a character it's like was his motivations truly to to save Nora because he's been shown this mercy and this compassion by Batman which closes his arc after he's finally lets like Batman finally let someone in in in Alfred and then was able to feel again and he presents that mercy then to to Victor Freeze but he then goes back to his old pattern like was he always really a violent man and Nora was the one that was keeping that violent nature at bay and now because no Nora he's falling back into old habits of being a violent person.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah well I'd say that's probably as as that might be the case but there's they because of all the puns taking up all the air time they couldn't really do any sort of proper backstories on any characters or any character development because there's too many puns.
SPEAKER_00:Well I think that there's definitely some evidence towards that because if you see the wedding videos of Freeze and Noro he's he looks like a very compassionate and and loving man in those those videos there. So yeah I th I I think his ending showed to me that he was actually more of a villain than a misunderstood hero and I would have liked to have seen Freeze's research and foregrounding that that yearning and love connection a little bit more than the diamond high sting. So I don't think he ends well but let's talk about Alfred now the the goat of the series and the absolute saviour of Bruce Wayne and Batman in in more ways than one. This is the the the more healthier version of connection and love that I've found in this movie so far because Alfred is a very vulnerable man not only because of his age but he's also the wise mentor that teaches Dick and Bruce that they should trust one another that they should be open with how they're feeling they should communicate more and he even says you know obviously there's secrets that happen within this house but they do have to be open with with each other. So but then there's also conflicting things towards that in his character representation because he says didn't I teach you that it's ungentlemanly to to air your dirty laundry out when they're talking about his sickness so yes he is a representation of a really good sort of accepting version of of love but he's also got some little flaws through this movie too. So I think that especially in terms of of boys the discussion point here is like strength isn't about emotional detachment or doing it alone and Alfred's the person that advocates for that the most in a mature way other than Robin who literally says it as a as a whinge and a wine.
SPEAKER_02:Also a bit of a hypocrite though at the same time yeah yeah exactly so you can't really read too much into that space either but like he he like he she he shows all this caring and sh wants everyone to be emotionally emotionally available for each other and to help each other on that emotional level but at the same time I think because of their issues he sort of varies his own to help them instead of like wanting more cons like wanting them to be more concerned because of his health issues.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because he knows he can see that they're already having trouble. He doesn't want to concern them by adding board trouble. And it's only until like not until they're already and when he collapses and that like oh shit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Alpha I was kind of waiting because I I hadn't watched this since I was a lot younger so I was kind of waiting for the time when Alfred's illness or demise rejoined those characters in a way that was meaningful almost like the you know the Greg Colson of the Avengers to to name more modern reference but it kind of it didn't really happen in that way because of obviously George Pluny Bruce Wayne's detachment he he does go through that scene prior where he does say I love you old man and Alfred says I love you too and that's probably the first time I've seen Bruce Wayne in a movie express like love verbally to anyone other than like a supermodel. And I think that was really really good for me to see with that the fact that he was almost closing the arc or being thankful of or seeing the the memories of Alfred bringing him up and not focusing on the fact that he'd he'd gone through all this grief stricken and traumatic events but he was almost silver lining it like looking at oh Alfred picks me up when I'm down Alfred's been here all the time Alfred helped me greet through this process and then he was like I love you and then from that he was able to then I'll put in quotes trust Robin and let him fall off the observatory tower on his own.
SPEAKER_02:I was gonna say there is actually one other Batman who sort of conveys love to Alfred movies and that's Robson has does he? I thought that they had a really tumultuous relationship with Andy Circus's after because after the after the explosion and that's right yes he's in the hospital and then he they basically because they they do have a bit of tumultuous relationship up to that scene and then that's when sort of Robert and him sort of have that healing moment together of like of Robert actually being concerned and actually finally saying like basically he's like a father he's like a part of the and you know that he wouldn't know what he does if he was salute him too yeah yeah it's it's almost like it's almost like the Alfred character is somebody who reframes love for Bruce in a lot of contexts.
SPEAKER_00:Like he he frames it as a responsibility rather than a a weakness but then he also reframes love as something that calls you toward action as opposed to like away from from action or it stops you from from avoiding and distracts from the mission but it defines the mission so to speak. And there's that fine line when you're talking about defining the mission for for love based on whether you're doing it for love. As we said with Freeze it can move to that obsession state but it can also move to that that self-determination as well and showing that relatedness and strength and motivation and resilience as well and that love doesn't soften Batman but it grounds him and it makes him different from the villains that he fights. So I think that's the that's the purpose of Alfred.
SPEAKER_02:Well no again talk about the purpose of Alfred so I don't think there's ever really been a bad Alfred because Alfred it's it's almost like like in the Noah movies with Batman where he says oh the bat I'm not the bat the hero the city deserves one that needs or something like that I'm not sure it needs right now yeah. Yeah well see Alfred is always the person that Batman needs not so much deserves so when he needs emotional support Alfred's that emotional support he needs a course correction Alfred said to do that too he does that he Alfred changes himself depending on what Bruce needs.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah he'll be his harshest critic but it'll also be his soft place to land and I think that's the the beauty of Alfred too he he's Michael throughout these movies does that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah and he's the one who initially like initially trains Bruce to fight like when he when he first loses his parents when he can he's angry is that so he teaches him how to fight and then it eventually goes off and starts with that minute training and comes back Alfred was like Alfred was one initially teaching because he Alfred knows like if he is just like the anger first die it won't be good. So he needs to try and expel that anger in a more productive way so he fight to get rid of that sort of anger behind him. Um but then yeah when he needs help with Robin like say it's being too hard on Robin or anything like that or not being too harsh. Like he sort of steps in and sort of just gives him a little bit of words of wisdom and usually or usually it's like like usually used as an example of back when he was a boy he's like oh I used to be a little bit young men you used to be like that and then that he's like ah yeah it was you wasn't it Alfred yeah it's what you're talking about you're talking about how when I was a little shit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay yeah I understand yeah but he's always he's always been that he's always been that character that like Batman needs yeah the reality check yeah he's always the yeah he's always the one that he needs at the at that time and changes changes d um depending on how what Batman's going through what Ruth's got yeah so I think through this movie he's probably the healthiest representation of connection and and love but I do not think that it's a perfect representation at all. But let's move on to talk about why this film failed and why it's been included in our failure isn't final theme arc. So we'll go into a few reasons about that and then we'll rate it and we'll do our sign offs from there. So this movie technically wasn't a flop it was a budgeted at$125 million and it earned$238 million worldwide. And I think the reason that it did that was because that it did have a big backing three movies before it and they were very much the event of the 90s I watched this documentary that said and Joel Schumacher was talking on it and he said there was a lot of secrecy around this movie. That being said there were always people visiting the set because it was just something that lots of people wanted to see whether it be politicians or famous people that just wanted to come and have a look and because it was kid centric and kid focused they'd bring their kids to come and see the Batman set as well. So it was a very much a very hyped movie and there was a lot of audience backing behind it and obviously Batman is a very popular character. With that being said upon release audience reception was poor critic reception was extremely negative and a lot of the reason for that was was because of the camp and the tonal shift that we saw in this movie from the previous Batmans that came before it like we talked earlier Brash about the Tim Burton directed Batman movies Batman and then Batman Returns um and you do feel it like like they do gradually go.
SPEAKER_02:So the original one with Mock Eden and with the penguin there was a much darker tone more graze everything it seemed more Gotham and more darker Batman and then slowly as it went as it got more popular I think there's got to a point where like oh these ones probably aren't that appropriate for kids let's start dialing it back so we can probably make more money. So yeah I think that's how it came down to like we need to make more money off this we need to be able to target it to more people let's make it more kid friendly but by doing that it just completely ruined the sort of direction that they had like the good direction they already had. Yeah. That's exactly right but it's like the out of the out of the old four movies my favor my my favorite is one then two then three then four like it just apparently like even when I was a kid like it was one then two and three then four.
SPEAKER_00:My favorite as a kid was three then four then one then two just a different guy. And I think through the 90s that was that was like it was definitely a big thing for everybody. Like my first Batman was Batman Forever in 1995 and I fell in love with Tommy Lee Jones's Too Face and he's still my favorite Batman villain to date not Tommy Lee Ver Jones's version of Too Faced but Too Face as a whole like he's still my favorite Batman villain because he was the very first one that I saw. But yeah I think you're right when in terms when you talked about that tonal shift whether it being more directed towards kids because Joel Schumacher actually said that he was urged by the studio to have a marketing first and merchandised view of this movie. So anything he could do and put in this movie to make it kid friendly more colourful and maximize toy lines is exactly what they should do. So he's been pretty open about it too Joel Schumacher said like he wasn't forced to do anything. This was the movie he wanted to do but there was definitely some monetary motivation behind it. So they talked about having multiple villains in the movie between Mr Freeze Poison Ivy and Bane and also introducing Batgirl because more characters equal more action figures. And then each time that they had a different suit as well like that would be a different type of action figure that they could sell. Whenever you saw Mr Freeze in his suit or out of his suit that's two different action figures or whether the weapons that he's using that was different sort of action figures too or different themed play sets that they could make. Like Bane was pretty much simplified to a mute henchman because you know nuance for him doesn't sell toys but the biggest sort of thing was the vehicles obviously Robin with his motorbike there was the bat skates there's the Batmobiles and then the ice themed vehicles at the end like there was just so much marketable toy features from this movie because previously on Batman Forever they'd made a lot of their bulk money from those toy sales. So Warner Brothers doubled down basically so another thing was like marketing overload if you remember like the McDonald's promotions the toy and obviously exclusive ads the animation style commercials that came out cross promotion across video games and things like that had an impact but I feel like all of these things obviously impacted creatively because the plot came became thin the characters turned into caricatures there was no emotional stakes and it was undercut by lots of puns and jokes it became very campy and obviously it was it was directed towards children so older fans felt alienated and then critics pretty much bombed it. But yeah ironically apparently the toy driven approach actually hurt the brand so when we're talking about failure isn't final we can talk about the fact that having that approach actually did hurt the film more than it helped the film and you can you can even retort it back to that famous Batman line that we know you know why do we fall so we can learn to pick ourselves back up. And obviously they did that because this franchise was iced a lot of the planned sequels were cancelled there was supposed to be a movie coming out after this called Batman Unchained which was supposed to feature the scarecrow and then Chris O'Donnell's also gone on the record to say that they were going to do a Nightwing spin-off all cancelled as a result but later through the years I think it was 15 years later obviously Nolan attached to it and created one of the most critically acclaimed Batman trilogies of all time so why do we fall so we can learn to pick ourselves back up. But the most controversial aspect of this entire film brash can you guess what it was has something to do with the suits. Oh the rubber suits nibbles yeah baby it's the nibbles so yes so the more anatomically correct suits apparently it was all the buzz but I've I've watched interviews with like George Clooney, Chris O'Donnell and also Joel Schumacher and when they were making those I was like I didn't really think it was a big idea big deal because Joel Schumacher's very famous for using human figures and bodies in his works like we looked at a lot of his scenes and set design from the Phantom of the Opera and also throughout Gotham City you can see these Greek statuesque figures just sort of all like extremely athletic looking like figures of of men and women just adorning the city of Gotham and then obviously there's these anatomical nipples on the batsuit because that's exactly what they wanted to do.
SPEAKER_02:But like the original it's just it's just a weird feature to have it's like it's like seeing someone in like medieval armour and then having nipples on their breast exactly I think it's yeah I guess so I mean like there are theme ones like that you like they do do that on some theme ones to make them sell like to make it look like it is ages.
SPEAKER_00:And I suppose that's probably what they were going for but I'm like no it's going to be the bat suit not the bat human flesh look alike yeah no I think it like Schumacher openly has said that he he likes the glam of it. I don't mind Robin's suit in this I think it does move more towards that night wing as opposed to Batman forever where he was in the circus attire I didn't like Nightwing with the Robin with the cape though. I think that could have gone but it's very classical Greek and Roman sort of statues and that idealized male anatomy but also for like going back to the toy point each toy had to be different and then sculpted differently and Schumacher actually said it it became an issue the only time he ever thought about the nipples was obviously when they introduced that girl because he's like how are we going to do this? Because if I if I do it the same way as the guys it'll seem a little bit perverse and if I don't include them it might not be inclusive. So obviously Alicia Silverstone's suit was was a little bit different but they still kept that sort of same aesthetic throughout but I think tonally it damaged the film that undercut all the dramatic scenes it made Batman feel like a bit of a parody and you know it gave critics a little bit of a shorthand you know because everybody was complaining about the the nipples on the Batsuit over everything else. So but this movie yes Batman and Robin definitely killed any kind of sequel it definitely is worthy of our failure isn't final theme arc. Let's go to our community thoughts because on our threads we put up a post that said tell me one good thing about Batman and Robin and tell me one bad thing about Batman and Robin. So we had a few people Comment on this. First, we had Reese Daniel Thompson who said honestly Schwarzenegger was pretty great as freeze, but Batgirl had no business being in the movie.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, and that that's like that's sort of like um because it it is odd because she comes in like right like well you do see she comes in as a character, but she doesn't actually. No, not really.
SPEAKER_00:And where I think it's again back to that marketing for a toy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I I would much prefer her coming in at the very start of the movie. Yeah. And having some sort of role in the movie, rather than just adding another character, the characters to just probably just for inclusion's sake.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well I I have seen that Joel Schumacher has said that the reason she was included was obviously to appeal to the young girls in the in the audience to to widen that that fan base, because basically in the Batman universe, the only people they have to look at was Poison Ivy and Catwoman, and they're not really role models, you could say. So whereas in this movie, Alicia Silverstone does play Batgirl to be a little bit more progressive for the 90s, you could say. So maybe that was the reason. But again, I think they've done it tokenistically and not to very much effect because she's only in it for 13 minutes screen time or whatever it is, and and not effective at all. So we had another person, Rusty Button 42, that said, I loved that Robin is basically in the Nightwing costume in it. I hate that his Nightwing costume had a cape, and I'll always love the stupid Batman Forever reference with the credit card, is both good and bad at the same time. So yeah, you know how it said Batman credit card valid until forever. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I think that added to the camp of it. But we had Sean Solo 3000 that said Clooney's Bruce Wayne was spot on. His scenes with Alfred were the best of the movie. Clooney's Batman is simply the same thing, which is not good for Batman. It's like the Adam West 97 parody version. Keaton, Kilmer, Bale, Affleck, and Pattinson all played Bruce and Batman differently, but Clooney didn't, and he thought that was yuck. And lastly, we had Scholacticus Maximus, who said one good thing about the movie was Bane, and one bad thing about the movie was that Bane was in it in this way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because we said that like we were talking about that earlier. Like we have different degree variations of what we thought about Bane, but I liked how Bane looked and just hated everything else about Bane. And even I went as far as to say I hated Bane in the Noller movies.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, which I disagree with.
SPEAKER_02:But I liked how he acted and how he sounded. I just hated how he was.
SPEAKER_00:I liked everything about Hardy's. And the fact he didn't have Venom.
SPEAKER_02:Bam, he didn't have the Ben. He's not Bane, he's just a big dude in a fucking gas mart.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Bane without Venom is not Bane.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think again, he he was a character that was added purely for merchandising and toy sales. You could say that he was the muscle to poison Ivy, and she even admits that as a character like I'm the beauty and he's the brawn. Like that was the line. I think that yeah, he's he's a character that he could have been just henchman number three. It didn't have to be Bane. Yeah, so I think he was a hit and a miss for this one as well. So all right, let's let's rate it ourselves, Brash. You can go first.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, watching this again. I mean for nostalgia's sake, one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Very fair. I think for me, if I'm gonna do my rating, I'll probably give it a one as well. For nostalgia's sake, because it was a movie that I watched a lot as a child and all like everything that we've talked about before. I think George Clooney is probably, no offense, George, if you're listening, my least favorite Batman. And the only thing I really do like about it is I do like the Robin character in this and I like how he's portrayed, but I do think Chris O'Donnell is a bit old, so I'm giving it a one as well. I think it's funny that even though we're we're completely opposite on the things that we like and hate about this movie, we both still rated it a one.
SPEAKER_02:Well, because my what the things I liked you didn't like and the things that you liked I didn't like.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well what was your what was your favorite thing about this movie, Brash? What was your favorite thing? And you can't say the ice punts.
SPEAKER_02:My my favorite thing, I think, from from this movie, like besides besides Alfred 2 because Alfred, I like I like Alfred. I I have to say I liked I actually like the action in this compared because compared to the other Bat like the other Batmans, because of the suits, and I'm sure that even in these suits are fucking horrible. The action was always really stunted. Stunted because of the lack of movement and the whole meme of the Batman looking around.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, his whole head turns. Well they they actually they even addressed that in Batman Begins, didn't they? Yeah. They said, you know, I need to be able to turn my head and not get stabbed by bullets. That was something that was said.
SPEAKER_02:But um, yeah, so I can argue they did pretty well uh in terms of like choreography and action. Some of it did look a bit ridiculous still. I mean i and sliding down the the dinosaur.
SPEAKER_00:The dinosaur, yabba dabba do.
SPEAKER_02:Yabba, that was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:They had they had some cool motions. I can agree like them like on the doors of the exploded rocket and they're travel when they're traveling down like they're surfing, air surfing. Like, yeah, was it you're you're skydiving with the surfboards and shit.
SPEAKER_00:Honestly, I can see why it appealed to me as a kid because yeah, those action sequences is what you watch a Batman movie for. And like the characters are completely caricatured, which is easy for kids to understand. I you know, I probably will show this movie to my son just for like an entry-level Batman.
SPEAKER_02:And just sit there and just staring and just look at his facial expressions throughout the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, see what happens. Yeah, we'll see see how he runs with it. But I think my favorite thing in this movie was apart from the action, the sound effects that was coupled with the action, like you see people slip over and it's like that classic whoop, or somebody like gets like popped off, and like the you know, the sound of the diamonds squelching across the floor, and you know, when the the rockets explode and things like that. Like, yeah, I think you know, there's a lot of fun things about this movie when you don't look at it too seriously, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Also, the Batman Bill the Bat I mean the Batmanville's alright.
SPEAKER_00:No, I still prefer in this one. The original Batmanmobile.
SPEAKER_02:The original Batmanville. Oh, that's that is my Batman Bill. I love that Batmanville so much. Big pins. The thing is, like the one I didn't like about this one was the fact that it had no canopy. You just sort of jumped in it, and he's like, you see his head poked out the top, he's trying to look at it. Yeah, they kind of they wanted to make it more Formula One. Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. It looked it looked really Formula One. I still sort of half like the style of it and even my Robin's motorcycle, which I like that he had his own motorbike, that was pretty cool. Fat cycle and everything like that.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, the uh see all the stuff that we like are things that we probably liked as a kid. Yeah. And the reason why Warner Brothers did this was because obviously you'd want to go and buy all these things that we're talking about that are cool. So without any further ado, Brash, is this better or worse than Aragon? I'm probably gonna say it's worse.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna say I was gonna say it's better.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but you're personally attached to Aragon as to why. I think look, I'm happy to put it better because we've got a bit of nostalgia connection to it. So it is ranked at number 30, pushing Aragon into Batman and Robin sits at number 30 on our fandom portals honor board. And that will end our episode here on Batman and Robin. This one has been a community pick from you guys. We want to thank everybody for voting, and we want to thank all our threads people for commenting and contributing to our episode. If you wanted to be a part of that, make sure you join our socials on Instagram and on threads. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls who listen, this is our second last episode for the year, which means our next episode, which will be our Christmas episode, will be the last for 2025. So make sure you jump on our socials to vote for which Christmas movie we will be covering on the podcast. And therefore, it will be the last entry onto our fandom portals honor board for this year. Because Brash and I have decided that we will be restarting in the new year with our honor board, which means that final positions will be final, finalized. Yeah. So thank you so much, everybody, for joining, and thank you for voting for this episode. Thank you, Batman, for being a wonderful topic to discuss. But let's go into our gratitudes. My gratitude this week is for transferable skills, I will say. Everybody on this podcast knows I'm a gridiron player, and I went and tried something new this morning. I went and tried to play baseball, and there was a couple of transferable skills that did not make me look like an idiot. So that was good. That's what I'm grateful for. And grateful for starting something new in the form of baseball. So what's your gratitudes, Brash?
SPEAKER_02:So I'm grateful for John Cena. Yeah. Because as of what our recording this today, tomorrow is his final match at Southern Arts main event before he retires against Quintur. So I want to thank John Cena for the many, many, many years of his performances in WWE and just wait pretty much carried that carried the WWE for so long.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, especially through the late 2000 tens slash early twenties.
SPEAKER_02:And all the work he's done with the many charities, including the two and the Make a Wish Foundation, where he's still the top Make a Wish Foundation person.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, John Cena. Thank you, John Cena. All right. This is Aaron signing off. Right saying bye. Keep learning, keep growing, and keep loving phantoms, guys.
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